The prison food and burkini ban dual thread

[celedhring]

I just have a really hard time understanding why a liberal democracy has to force women to undress in beaches.

[garbon]

Which is fine and they should be plain in saying so. Not hide behind the values of 'good morals and secularism' as that's naught but a fig leaf.

Didn't we have the same discussion when we were arguing whether the US President should come out and say that the US is at war with Islamism - I thought at the time it was decided that explicit and plain rhetorics is less important than achieving strategic goals. Same here, I suppose?

I think if you want Muslims to leave your country/not enter, making explicit bigoted statements is probably more effective. Unduly harassing them using a figleaf of secularism probably just leads to radicalization.

[garbon]

I just have a really hard time understanding why a liberal democracy has to force women to undress in beaches.

Indeed.

[Martinus]

I just have a really hard time understanding why a liberal democracy has to force women to undress in beaches.

Many liberal democracies enforce dress code in public places.

[Martinus]

Which is fine and they should be plain in saying so. Not hide behind the values of 'good morals and secularism' as that's naught but a fig leaf.

Didn't we have the same discussion when we were arguing whether the US President should come out and say that the US is at war with Islamism - I thought at the time it was decided that explicit and plain rhetorics is less important than achieving strategic goals. Same here, I suppose?

I think if you want Muslims to leave your country/not enter, making explicit bigoted statements is probably more effective. Unduly harassing them using a figleaf of secularism probably just leads to radicalization.

You have to also work around useful idiots in the West.

[celedhring]

Which is fine and they should be plain in saying so. Not hide behind the values of 'good morals and secularism' as that's naught but a fig leaf.

Didn't we have the same discussion when we were arguing whether the US President should come out and say that the US is at war with Islamism - I thought at the time it was decided that explicit and plain rhetorics is less important than achieving strategic goals. Same here, I suppose?

I think if you want Muslims to leave your country/not enter, making explicit bigoted statements is probably more effective. Unduly harassing them using a figleaf of secularism probably just leads to radicalization.

You have to also work around useful idiots in the West.

Having the police watching beaches so women don't wear too much clothing in them doesn't seem to me that far removed from having the police watching beaches so women don't wear too little clothing in them.

[Valmy]

Which is fine and they should be plain in saying so. Not hide behind the values of 'good morals and secularism' as that's naught but a fig leaf.

Somehow, I very much doubt that the authorities would care if someone was sitting at the beach under a duvet or in a beekeeper suit.

That may be a language barrier thing. I think when French people hear about Laïcité they understand it means French Republican Culture. Which I think is a bit different from what we think of as 'good morals and secularism'.

[Martinus]

Which is fine and they should be plain in saying so. Not hide behind the values of 'good morals and secularism' as that's naught but a fig leaf.

Didn't we have the same discussion when we were arguing whether the US President should come out and say that the US is at war with Islamism - I thought at the time it was decided that explicit and plain rhetorics is less important than achieving strategic goals. Same here, I suppose?

I think if you want Muslims to leave your country/not enter, making explicit bigoted statements is probably more effective. Unduly harassing them using a figleaf of secularism probably just leads to radicalization.

You have to also work around useful idiots in the West.

Having the police watching beaches so women don't wear too much clothing in them doesn't seem to me that far removed from having the police watching beaches so women don't wear too little clothing in them.

Yes. Would Spanish or US police intervene if a woman was walking completely naked at a non-nudist beach?

[garbon]

Which is fine and they should be plain in saying so. Not hide behind the values of 'good morals and secularism' as that's naught but a fig leaf.

Didn't we have the same discussion when we were arguing whether the US President should come out and say that the US is at war with Islamism - I thought at the time it was decided that explicit and plain rhetorics is less important than achieving strategic goals. Same here, I suppose?

I think if you want Muslims to leave your country/not enter, making explicit bigoted statements is probably more effective. Unduly harassing them using a figleaf of secularism probably just leads to radicalization.

You have to also work around useful idiots in the West.

Having the police watching beaches so women don't wear too much clothing in them doesn't seem to me that far removed from having the police watching beaches so women don't wear too little clothing in them.

Yes. Would Spanish or US police intervene if a woman was walking completely naked at a non-nudist beach?

I don't think those are at all the same. Requiring someone to take off clothing is not the same as requiring something to wear clothing.

Also, this is clearly a discriminatory law as there is only a small subset of people who would want to wear the banned item (that isn't actually harming anyone).

Of course, it isn't out of line with muslim garb that France has already banned so I shouldn't be surprised...but that doesn't make it any less distressing/shocking.

[celedhring]

There's a social taboo in our society regarding showing pubic hair, for example, but there isn't one about fully clothed women in beaches - heck, that was the social norm not that long ago. Unless we're making shit up in order to target certain cultural groups.

[Razgovory]

There's a social taboo in our society regarding showing pubic hair, for example, but there isn't one about fully clothed women in beaches - heck, that was the social norm not that long ago. Unless we're making shit up in order to target certain cultural groups.

As garbon told me, "settle down".

[viper37]

If you are going to have a society that makes a woman strip off some of her garments in public in the name of good moral and secularism, then yeah I think one should expect to be called out for hypocrisy (and racism) if you religious symbolism enshrined in state holidays.

Overzealous cops.  That does not exist in multicultural states like the United Kingdom and the United States, obviously.
You wouldn't see a mayor trying to defend silly actions either over there.  Nope.  Never happenned.

Afaik, it ain't in the law, the tribunals haven't ruled on that either.  They did rule that the burkini was forbidden, as with all religious symbols in public space though.  And that is a faire compromise for a free society.

To be honest, you are surprising me a bit given how much grievance you attach to symbolism.

I don't see the harm in celebrating our national holyday on 24th of June or taking a day off on 25th december.
I could still work if I wanted to.  I used to.  If people are off to celebrate the birth of their God, what do I care?  I just don't want to be forced to celebrate with them, to live according to their rules.  I really don't think places like Turkey or Iran are models to be followed, nor do I think I would get a fair hearing from a judge who has the Ten Commandments in his courtroom when he realizes I'm not a believer.

[garbon]

If you are going to have a society that makes a woman strip off some of her garments in public in the name of good moral and secularism, then yeah I think one should expect to be called out for hypocrisy (and racism) if you religious symbolism enshrined in state holidays.

Overzealous cops.  That does not exist in multicultural states like the United Kingdom and the United States, obviously.
You wouldn't see a mayor trying to defend silly actions either over there.  Nope.  Never happenned.

If you have something to say, say it. Don't be a little bitch making insinuations.

Afaik, it ain't in the law, the tribunals haven't ruled on that either.  They did rule that the burkini was forbidden, as with all religious symbols in public space though.  And that is a faire compromise for a free society.

Actually social media has been quick to throw up pictures of nuns in their habits at beaches in France. Maybe they were also fined and it simply has never made the news.

[garbon]

There's a social taboo in our society regarding showing pubic hair, for example, but there isn't one about fully clothed women in beaches - heck, that was the social norm not that long ago. Unless we're making shit up in order to target certain cultural groups.

As garbon told me, "settle down".

You get that because you've been running around rather unpleasantlike across a variety of threads.

[garbon]

Elsewhere in the world...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/24/hijab-approved-as-uniform-option-by-scotland-police/

Hijab approved as uniform option by Scotland Police

The hijab has become an optional part of the Police Scotland uniform as the force works to encourage Muslim women to join the service.

Previously, officers could wear the religious headscarf with approval but it is now formally part of the force uniform.

Police Scotland said it is working to make the force "representative of the communities we serve."

The formal announcement was welcomed by the Scottish Police Muslim Association (SPMA), an organisation set up in 2010 to build closer ties with Muslim communities.

Chief Constable Phil Gormley said: "I am delighted to make this announcement and welcome the support from both the Muslim community, and the wider community, as well as police officers and staff.

"Like many other employers, especially in the public sector, we are working towards ensuring our service is representative of the communities we serve.

"I hope that this addition to our uniform options will contribute to making our staff mix more diverse and adds to the life skills, experiences and personal qualities that our officers and staff bring to policing the communities of Scotland."

A report to the Scottish Police Authority earlier this year showed there were 4,809 applications to join Police Scotland in 2015/16, of which 127 (2.6%) were from ethnic backgrounds.

It read: "Based on these figures, it is clear to see that challenge Police Scotland faces. If the black and minority ethnic groups (BME) national average of 4% is to be met within the organisation, an additional 650 BME recruits are required across all areas of the business.

"Considering current application trends, this would appear to be unachievable."

The Metropolitan Police in London approved the hijab as part of its uniform more than a decade ago.

SPMA chair Fahad Bashir said: "This is a positive step in the right direction, and I am delighted that Police Scotland is taking productive steps in order to ensure that our organisation is seen to be inclusive and represents the diverse communities that we serve across Scotland.

"No doubt this will encourage more women from Muslim and minority ethnic backgrounds to join Police Scotland."