Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[grumbler]

Whoever started this craze for talking about "unelected PMs" did a serious disservice to our system.

This.  When even supposedly knowledgable people start to talk about "unelected PMs" when all PMs are unelected (indeed, the person leading the party into the election may not even take the job in some countries or under some circumstances) you know that the noise is drowning out the signal.  That's also the basis of Trumpism.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah. Though, whatever she says, May will have a majority of 12 and a honeymoon period. I'd be surprised if she didn't go for an election.

[Sheilbh]

I listened to Kinnocks speech with great enthusiasm. He makes all sorts of wonderful points and remains a fabulous speaker. It's a great point, that the Labour Party exists to pursue a parliamentary road to power, a parliamentary path to democratic socialism and so forth. It's excellent criticism of Corbyn and friends but my big objection of course is that the supposedly moderate PLP is barely distinguishable from the Tories in terms of policy. They like foreign wars and business and they aren't overtly racist (but they might be closet anti semites )and they dont say awful things about gay people but are they advancing any kind of agenda based on what the Labour party was founded on. Perhaps not.

I don't think this is true and especially not when he's lost the support of 180 MPs in the Labour PArty. That's far more than just the 'moderates'. Also I'm not sure he's really actually advanced any ideas that are interesting or distinctive - John McDonnell has - I feel like Corbyn has spent too long attending rallies and just spouts platitudes rather than realising he needs a policy agenda.

Incidentally talks have broken down, Angela Eagle will stand:

Angela Eagle to announce Labour party leadership bid on Monday
MP says she will explain her vision for the country after peace talks collapse following Corbyn's insistence he will stay as leader
Daniel Boffey
Saturday 9 July 2016 13.36 BST Last modified on Saturday 9 July 2016 13.43 BST

Angela Eagle is to announce a formal challenge against Jeremy Corbyn for the leadership of the Labour party on Monday, after the deputy leader, Tom Watson, announced that union-backed peace talks over a compromise had collapsed.

Watson claimed in a statement that Corbyn had torpedoed any hope of talks progressing by publicly declaring his intention to stay on as leader "come what may".

In a statement released on Saturday morning, Watson said that with "regret and profound sadness" he had concluded that there was "little to be achieved" in continuing discussions between the unions, who are largely backing Corbyn, and key members of the parliamentary party, including chief whip Rosie Winterton and parliamentary party chair John Cryer.

It is understood that Watson had been privately asking the two key contenders for the leadership, Eagle and Owen Smith, to hold back from launching their campaigns to allow further time for an agreement with Corbyn to be made.

Watson's statement suggested that he was now content for the contenders to publicly state their intentions to challenge Corbyn, who is resolved to stay on in his post despite the widespread lack of confidence in his role among MPs.

Eagle subsequently said she would announce a bid for the leadership of the Labour party on Monday morning, adding that she will "explain my vision for the country and the difference a strong Labour party can make".

Eagle, who was shadow business secretary before resigning from Corbyn's frontbench, said: "I want to thank our deputy leader, Tom Watson, the chair of the parliamentary Labour party, John Cryer, and chief whip Rosie Winterton and the union movement for trying to find a solution to the impasse Labour faces, with a leader who has failed to fulfil his first and foremost duty.

"That is to lead an organised and effective PLP that can both hold the government to account and demonstrate we are ready to form a government in the event of a general election.

"On Monday morning I will announce my candidature for leader of the Labour party. I will explain my vision for the country and the difference a strong Labour party can make."

Watson's statement explained: "Since the talks began, Jeremy has publicly declared his intention to continue as leader come what may. This means there is no realistic prospect of reaching a compromise that satisfies the majority of colleagues in the PLP.

"It is with regret and profound sadness that I have concluded there is little to be achieved by pursuing wider conversations with our union affiliates at this time.

"The Labour party was founded with the explicit aim of pursuing the parliamentary path to socialism. Every Labour leader needs to command the support of their MPs in the parliamentary Labour party, as well as party members, in order to achieve that. It is clear to all that Jeremy has lost the support of the PLP with little prospect of regaining it."

Watson said he felt that significant progress had been made in the talks between the unions and the parliamentary party representatives, in a sign that there may be some doubts among union leaders over the sense in Corbyn continuing.

But the deputy Labour leader appeared to suggest that Corbyn's intransigence, based on the democratic mandate earned from his landslide victory in the leadership election last September, and the firm resolve among MPs to unseat the leader, had meant that progress was impossible.

He said: "I felt we made significant progress during those talks, which were designed to find a solution to the impasse the party finds itself in. It is my strong belief that those discussions could have formed a basis for further talks with union representatives.

"However, since the talks began, Jeremy has publicly declared his intention to continue as leader come what may. This means there is no realistic prospect of reaching a compromise that satisfies the majority of colleagues in the PLP."

A spokesman for Corbyn said he "has reached out to Labour MPs and made clear he wants to work with them to carry out his role as elected leader of the party".

He added: "Jeremy regards the talks with trade union leaders as a vehicle to bring people together, and it is disappointing that some have walked away from them. Jeremy is committed to fulfilling all his responsibilities as democratically elected leader and will not betray the hundreds of thousands of people who elected him for a different direction for the Labour party and a different kind of politics.

"He continues to be fully committed to working with the parliamentary Labour party and is ready to talk with as many people as necessary to assist that process, discussing policy initiatives and listening to ideas. He will remain leader of the Labour party and will contest any leadership challenge if one is mounted."

Corbyn's leadership was plunged into crisis after Britain's vote to the leave the EU in the referendum last month, with large numbers of his shadow cabinet resigning and publicly stating they had no confidence in his leadership.

The mass departure of senior cabinet ministers came after Hilary Benn, the former shadow foreign minister, was sacked for his alleged involvement in a coup against the leader. A series of tense meetings of the PLP have been held in subsequent weeks but the challenge has faltered following Corby's refusal to stand down.

Edit: And PM has announced the vote on Trident renewal will be a week on Monday. Corbyn's going to win big

[Monoriu]

Going to the UK is once again high on our agenda as the pound has fallen.  Lots of people in HK are happy as they have kids studying in the UK. 

[Agelastus]

Yeah. Though, whatever she says, May will have a majority of 12 and a honeymoon period. I'd be surprised if she didn't go for an election.

So, what's it going to be then? Given there's a good chance the other parties won't want an election (the SNP doesn't need one to reaffirm its' support in Scotland and Labour might still be in leadership meltdown) do you think she's going to force her party, the governing party, to vote for a no-confidence motion in itself?

If the House of Commons resolves "That this House has no confidence in Her Majesty's Government", an early general election is held, unless the House of Commons subsequently resolves "That this House has confidence in Her Majesty's Government". This second resolution must be made within fourteen days of the first.
If the House of Commons, with the support of two-thirds of its total membership (including vacant seats), resolves "That there shall be an early parliamentary general election".

[Sheilbh]

Yep. There's precedent in other countries with fixed terms like Germany and it's just novel here.

But I also can't see the SNP or Labour voting that they do have confidence in a Tory government.

[Josquius]

I don't see why she would have an election with the current fixed 5 year rule. She is in power already. Kick opponents out of the party and run her people against them? Only logical possibility that comes to me but a bit far fetched

[Sheilbh]

I don't see why she would have an election with the current fixed 5 year rule. She is in power already. Kick opponents out of the party and run her people against them? Only logical possibility that comes to me but a bit far fetched

She won't make the same mistake Brown did and she's got a majority of 12, at the minute I'd guess the Tories can increase that to say 40-50. As I say I'd be surprised if she didn't.

[fromtia]

What policy path should Labour be following?

Part of Corbyns appeal to Labour party members I suspect is that he is identifiably left wing. He may be a bumbling geography teacher but he seems to believe in an actual alternative to Tory policy.

Rather than lay out a manifesto , I would say that I would prefer that the Labour party pursue a left wing policy agenda. Dump austerity, fund the NHS etc. Just really basic things.

During Hillary Benns speech where he excitedly suggested bombing Syria would be a good idea, I have to admit I had a moment of despair. The PLP voted for Iraq, except the ones who weren't MP's at the time. Corbyn famously voted against and Corbyn is the one who is out of step. This is quite a rabbit hole.

[Sheilbh]

Incidentally went to a local party meeting. Very interesting speaking to Remain campaigners who were saying how taken aback they were at the strength and hostility of feeling for Leave in some of the working class, council estate areas in the Borough. Southwark voted 75% to remain, but they were surprised how many Leave people they were meeting and how strongly that was felt.

[dps]

I side with the elite over the proles, always. Unsure as to why people would want to glorify the stupid.

It's not like the elites are all that smart themselves.  Sure, some of them are, but some of them are among the dumbest people on the planet.

True. But at least they are marginally better informed.

Perhaps.  The real problem with the "elites" is that they have bought too much into the idea that man is mostly (or even solely) an economic animal.  That leads to thinking that the masses are stupid or uninformed because they vote against positions that the elites believe are in the best economic interest of the masses.  But it's not so much that the masses are stupid or ignorant about economics (though obviously some are), it's that the masses aren't necessarily motivated solely by economics.

[Admiral Yi]

Rather than lay out a manifesto , I would say that I would prefer that the Labour party pursue a left wing policy agenda. Dump austerity, fund the NHS etc. Just really basic things.

Would you prefer this is funded through deficit spending or increased taxes?

[fromtia]

Would you prefer this is funded through deficit spending or increased taxes?

increased taxes.

[grumbler]

Would you prefer this is funded through deficit spending or increased taxes?

increased taxes.

Just on the "rich," or across the board?

[fromtia]

Just on the "rich," or across the board?
[/quote]

Well the rich have been doing fabulously in the UK, so that might be a good place to start. But yes, across the board. It's a big topic, the NHS. But interestingly the Brexiteers put it at the center of their profoundly dishonest  campaign and promised to spend money on it. They were lying obviously.