Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Sheilbh]

In Lib Dem news, Nick Clegg is due to give a speech. Sensing catastrophe remain have scheduled it to clash with England-Wales.

Meanwhile in Holyrood all the pro-remain MSPs are doing a group photo. Except the Lib Dems because everyone forgot to invite them

[Richard Hakluyt]

Cameron has gone to campaign in Gibraltar (I'm not sure why, since that place is overwhelmingly Remain) and our government has thrown a hissy fit about it. Dat European collaboration 

(We are in the middle of a campaign ourselves, and our conservatives are known to play the Gibraltar card whenever they need some smokescreen. And boy, do they need it...).

I think that Cameron is a brexit mole. There are only about 20,000 voters there, but then there is always the possibility of intemperate remarks about Gibraltar by Spanish politicians to help the brexit cause along 

[mongers]

Cameron has gone to campaign in Gibraltar (I'm not sure why, since that place is overwhelmingly Remain) and our government has thrown a hissy fit about it. Dat European collaboration 

(We are in the middle of a campaign ourselves, and our conservatives are known to play the Gibraltar card whenever they need some smokescreen. And boy, do they need it...).

I think that Cameron is a brexit mole. There are only about 20,000 voters there, but then there is always the possibility of intemperate remarks about Gibraltar by Spanish politicians to help the brexit cause along 

I've been saying for some time, Cameron was the last deep-cover Soviet agent; recently activated by Putin, this is his 2nd attempt at breaking up the UK. 

[Richard Hakluyt]

 

Well it is either that or a British PM is a bit dim and out of touch 

[mongers]

Good to see Ken Clarke on the BBC giving reasoned, balanced view on the EU referendum issues.

Makes a change from the fear, smoke and mirror tactics of both official campaigns.

[Sheilbh]

Cameron has gone to campaign in Gibraltar (I'm not sure why, since that place is overwhelmingly Remain) and our government has thrown a hissy fit about it. Dat European collaboration 

(We are in the middle of a campaign ourselves, and our conservatives are known to play the Gibraltar card whenever they need some smokescreen. And boy, do they need it...).

I think that Cameron is a brexit mole. There are only about 20,000 voters there, but then there is always the possibility of intemperate remarks about Gibraltar by Spanish politicians to help the brexit cause along 

I don't know I think it's quite clever.

The sort of voters who bang on/remotely care about Gibraltar are probably Pro-leave. This seems quite a canny way to get to them. If only the plucky little Falklanders could vote or cared...

[Duque de Bragança]

Cameron has gone to campaign in Gibraltar (I'm not sure why, since that place is overwhelmingly Remain) and our government has thrown a hissy fit about it. Dat European collaboration 

(We are in the middle of a campaign ourselves, and our conservatives are known to play the Gibraltar card whenever they need some smokescreen. And boy, do they need it...).

I think that Cameron is a brexit mole. There are only about 20,000 voters there, but then there is always the possibility of intemperate remarks about Gibraltar by Spanish politicians to help the brexit cause along 

I've been saying for some time, Cameron was the last deep-cover Soviet agent; recently activated by Putin, this is his 2nd attempt at breaking up the UK. 

I heard the same about Merkel, possibly Stasi instead of KGB. Replace the UK by the EU. 

[Agelastus]

Cameron has gone to campaign in Gibraltar (I'm not sure why, since that place is overwhelmingly Remain) and our government has thrown a hissy fit about it. Dat European collaboration 

(We are in the middle of a campaign ourselves, and our conservatives are known to play the Gibraltar card whenever they need some smokescreen. And boy, do they need it...).

I think that Cameron is a brexit mole. There are only about 20,000 voters there, but then there is always the possibility of intemperate remarks about Gibraltar by Spanish politicians to help the brexit cause along 

I don't know I think it's quite clever.

The sort of voters who bang on/remotely care about Gibraltar are probably Pro-leave. This seems quite a canny way to get to them. If only the plucky little Falklanders could vote or cared...

It'll only get to the pro-leave voters if Spain's comments are condemned by the other parties/successor parties to the Treaty of Utrecht, such as France, Portugal, the Netherlands etc. Which, as always, won't happen.

As for Cameron? I think his main problem is that, for either political or personal reasons, he's given the impression of being fairly lukewarm towards the EU for the last several years. Now he's the point-man of a campaign trying to convince the public that the EU is great, with George Osborne ("Mr. Popular") as his right hand man...

[Sheilbh]

I meant that Gibraltar's PM has talked about unification in case of Brexit.

[Richard Hakluyt]

An excellent piece by John Harris about the huge working class support for Brexit :

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/17/britain-working-class-revolt-eu-referendum

I'm quite a fan of his, he gets off his arse and goes and talks to people the length and breadth of the land, journalism 101 perhaps, but quite rare in British journalism especially over at the Guardian.

[Tamas]

An excellent piece by John Harris about the huge working class support for Brexit :

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/17/britain-working-class-revolt-eu-referendum

I'm quite a fan of his, he gets off his arse and goes and talks to people the length and breadth of the land, journalism 101 perhaps, but quite rare in British journalism especially over at the Guardian.

Great quote at the end.

"The crisis consists precisely in the fact that the old is dying and the new is yet to be born. And in the interregnum, a great variety of morbid symptoms appear."

[Sheilbh]

Wanting to increase the minimum wage, hoping to see mitigation for the poorest in the face of capitalism red in tooth and claw and now approvingly quoting Gramsci!

Comrade, you've changed

[Tamas]

Wanting to increase the minimum wage, hoping to see mitigation for the poorest in the face of capitalism red in tooth and claw and now approvingly quoting Gramsci!

Comrade, you've changed

I don't approve Gramsci's communist idiocy, but the quote fits our time quite well.

Many, many things are changing hopefully forever. The jobs-for-life and the accompanying welfare state that sheltered you from any kind of challenge or decisions in your life if you didn't want to make them, and created wonderfully functional countries like the France of today.
The nation states and national societies closed to insights from the rest of the world.
Lots of wonderful technological changes that scare old people so much they are ready to stand behind any destructive idea.
Etc.

And, once again, I want to lower/abolish the minimum wage It's the silliest fucking idea ever. It helps those who are, at the moment, earning exactly the minimum wage. It hurts everyone else, most prominently the unemployed.



BTW, speaking of France:

It is often mentioned, be the article RH posted, or posters here, that the working class has been abandoned and ignored and wasn't defended.

There is one aspect of that which I agree with: nobody really cared to explain to them, why immigration/etc are good. (On the other hand of course, you can't really wrap those positive explanations into short emotional sentences that can also compete with their negative counterparts based on racism and other petty stuff.

However, when it comes to economic policies: is this really true? I have my doubts, especially in a country like the UK. And even if not enough protection was done, would more protection actually help things on the long run?
Look at what is happening in France: they are stuck with a labour law that was hand-crafted to fit the conditions of the 60s like a glove, making sure it shall be the word of law, not your performance, that protects your job.
Where did that lead them? They have all kinds of economic problems especially compared to the potential in that country, and the streets are on fire every time a modest suggestion is made to get legislation more in line with the conditions of the early 21st century.

[Josquius]

Today by chance I watched this documentary about ancient greece

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UqCbSGqZXg

At around 42:50 you have our dear Mr Johnson speaking about the brilliance of the ancient greek equivalent of Polish builders

[Richard Hakluyt]

Of course a law was passed, sponsored by Pericles, limiting Athenian citizenship to those whose parents were also both Athenians.