Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Josquius]

The American right used to go on and on about "no-go" zone in Britain.  I thought it was complete bullshit, but this year football fans from a certain country were told not to show up in a certain city because it wouldn't be safe.  So I guess there are no-go zones now?

Also, this Egyptian guy, was he the same lot that got gunned down while people on Languish cheered 10-15 years ago?

This happens quite often in European competitions.
E.g.
https://www.tntsports.co.uk/football/uefa-europa-conference-league/2023-2024/legia-warsaw-fans-banned-for-five-away-matches-after-trouble-at-aston-villa-in-uefa-europa-conferenc_sto9919453/story.shtml

There's far more "no go zones" in the US than the UK.

Where are the no-go zones in the US?

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=Worst+us+zip+code+crime+rate+

[Valmy]

Where are the no-go zones in the US?

In order to answer that question I guess you would need to actually define what a zone is and what qualities a zone would have to get the designation "no-go".

I would say most of the state of Missouri personally.

[Admiral Yi]

Where are the no-go zones in the US?

I've seen gangs of quite young kids throwing stones at tourists walking home at night from the L'Enfant Plaza metro stop presumably to their hotel on South Capitol Street.  This was in DC. I would advise any white tourists to "no go" that part of town. I've had a rock and a bottle thrown at me on 8th Street between Chinatown and Howard University.

[mongers]

Where are the no-go zones in the US?

I've seen gangs of quite young kids throwing stones at tourists walking home at night from the L'Enfant Plaza metro stop presumably to their hotel on South Capitol Street.  This was in DC. I would advise any white tourists to "no go" that part of town. I've had a rock and a bottle thrown at me on 8th Street between Chinatown and Howard University.

Assuming this is 'learned' behaviour, the question is who/what/s are teahing them this behaviour?

[Tamas]

This thing with the Egyptian guy seems like such an unforced error, the part of celebrating his citizenship and coming over and then being all appalled that he is a hateful asshole.

Like, I am not aware of social media checks being part of the citizenship process so what difference would have it made if the government knew he was a raving antisemite? And if it matters because it was a custom decision by the government to give him citizenship because he is not eligible for it otherwise, then yeah maybe just don't do that as a rule when there are other legal ways to let somebody stay here.

And now that he is a citizen, what is Starmer implying to do? Revoke the citizenship due to antisemitic tweets and Facebook posts? That could become precedent for quite a purge let me tell you. PM Farage and then PM Robinson are going to love that.

Or maybe when Your Party comes to power somebody can dig up some pro-Israel posts of mine here and revoke my citizenship.

Ridiculous.

[Sheilbh]

This thing with the Egyptian guy seems like such an unforced error, the part of celebrating his citizenship and coming over and then being all appalled that he is a hateful asshole.

The line I keep coming back to is from that Tory MP who'd been heavily involved in the campaign: "those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah's protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday."

Politics by passive voice.

Like, I am not aware of social media checks being part of the citizenship process so what difference would have it made if the government knew he was a raving antisemite?

This is where the ECHR gets involved

So there is a "good character" test for people acquiring citizenship. It's deliberately very, very vague. But it typically covers things like criminal record, history of bankruptcies, deception in the application process but is very vague. So it has in the past been used to reject applications for citizenship from "hate preachers", for example. And in the case of an activist from a friendly country it allows the state discretion. That could have applied to El Fattah.

However the ECHR held in 2019 that the "good character" test could only be applied to naturalisation. As El Fattah's mother had Brtish citizenship it couldn't be applied to him even if the state wanted to when he acquired citizenship in 2021.

And if it matters because it was a custom decision by the government to give him citizenship because he is not eligible for it otherwise, then yeah maybe just don't do that as a rule when there are other legal ways to let somebody stay here.

This sort of gets to the Egyptian point. He wasn't born in Britain and has never lived in Britain. The issue was never whether he could stay here or not. He had already been arrested and convicted at the point he became a British citizen.

The Egyptian view, which they're pretty forthright about, is that the process that gave him citizenship was irregular. It was Britain basically asserting sovereignty over an Egyptian citizen, convicted of committing crimes in Egypt and successive British govrnments have burned through their relationship with Egypt over this.

FWIW, the British line is that it was the normal process. Admittedly the British state's response (especially under Starmer) to, say, getting accidentally successfully invaded by the Russians would be that while it may be regretful, the really important thing is that correct processes and procedures were followed at all times

And now that he is a citizen, what is Starmer implying to do? Revoke the citizenship due to antisemitic tweets and Facebook posts? That could become precedent for quite a purge let me tell you. PM Farage and then PM Robinson are going to love that.

Well as I say the test there would be if he does something like post support for Palestine Action, as he did last week, as that is supporting a proscribed terrorist organisation which is a serious crime.

I'm not sure if it's serious enough for citizenship to be revoked (if he's still an Egyptian citizen) and deported.

But yeah as I say I think it is true across Europe that we have increasing laws against free speech or that restrict free speech. A lot of this - frankly a lot of European law - seems predicated on the assumption that only people like us will ever be in charge so they won't be misused. Not sure that's true and I am swinging far more to the old left wing suspicion/opposition to state power in many areas - especially when it's not very specifically and narrowly authorised as law by the legislature. On the day-to-day basis I think if a power exists it will be used and is likely to be abused - by the police and the security services - and more fundamentally I think it's kindling for a more oppressive regime.

Ridiculous.

Again, there was a very effective campaign. All of this was backed by MPs from all parties, campaigned for by successive governments, strongly supported by a lot of the media including the Times and the Guardian and according to the Egyptian government the civil service were fully briefed. The interest for me is that I think it reflects systemic problems and breakdowns which are in turn causes of wider problems.

Although if I had to sum it up whether it's MPs or ministers I sadly just have the impression they're not serious people

[Tamas]

I suspect it has something to do with the painfully naive western take that fighting an oppressive regime to the level of going to prison means you are struggling to enact liberal democracy.

I mean, bloody Stalin was prosecuted while fighting an oppressive regime, it doesn't tell shit about one's character.

[Sheilbh]

I sort of agree - but I think he is a genuine pro-democracy activist. And I absolutely think we should back democracy in Egypt and anywhere else. It's about the principle of popular sovereignty - but the people are going to be different in different places with different historical, cultural, economic contexts.

But I don't think the world is converging on Europe or that being a democrat necessarily means they're going to have the "liberal democratic" views that our historical, cultural and economic contexts have produce (we might not even have them).

[Zoupa]

The American right used to go on and on about "no-go" zone in Britain.  I thought it was complete bullshit, but this year football fans from a certain country were told not to show up in a certain city because it wouldn't be safe.  So I guess there are no-go zones now?

Also, this Egyptian guy, was he the same lot that got gunned down while people on Languish cheered 10-15 years ago?

This happens quite often in European competitions.
E.g.
https://www.tntsports.co.uk/football/uefa-europa-conference-league/2023-2024/legia-warsaw-fans-banned-for-five-away-matches-after-trouble-at-aston-villa-in-uefa-europa-conferenc_sto9919453/story.shtml

There's far more "no go zones" in the US than the UK.

Where are the no-go zones in the US?

Depends on your definition. Considering the serious crime rate in the US is magnitudes of the average European rates, I assume there are plenty.

[HVC]

I sort of agree - but I think he is a genuine pro-democracy activist. And I absolutely think we should back democracy in Egypt and anywhere else. It's about the principle of popular sovereignty - but the people are going to be different in different places with different historical, cultural, economic contexts.

But I don't think the world is converging on Europe or that being a democrat necessarily means they're going to have the "liberal democratic" views that our historical, cultural and economic contexts have produce (we might not even have them).

Ehhh, I don't know. Would the world be better off with a destabilizing democracy or a stabling authoritarian state. Not necessarily talking about Egypt, just more of a thought experiment.

*edit* not saying I'm advocating the classic US style of getting rid of democracies they don't approve of, mind. More that you may not want to promote and back them either.

[Razgovory]

Where are the no-go zones in the US?

In order to answer that question I guess you would need to actually define what a zone is and what qualities a zone would have to get the designation "no-go".

I would say most of the state of Missouri personally.

Well in the case in question, it would have to be where local politicians successfully lobby to keep people from a certain ethnicity out of a city.  Like a Sun-down town.  I don't think we have any of those anymore.

[Zoupa]

What's the case in question?

[Richard Hakluyt]

Maccabi Tel Aviv were travelling to play Aston Villa in a Europa League fixture. West Midlands police placed a ban on Maccabi fans travelling to the match. This caused controversy here and elsewhere https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/oct/21/standing-with-maccabis-football-hooligans-against-local-police-is-that-what-patriotism-looks-like-now

I think it is relevant to note that the Israelis themselves cancelled a match between Maccabis and Hapoel at around the same time, citing "risk to human life" https://www.theguardian.com/football/2025/oct/19/tel-aviv-football-derby-between-hapoel-and-maccabi-called-off-after-rioting

It is a tough call; but, personally, I am against such bans which are too much of a collective punishment. It is understandable why West Midlands police didn't want to run the risk of a running battle in Birmingham with a few hundred Maccabi ultras; but I'm glad I'm not a footie fan as the second class citizen treatment they so often get would really get me riled.

[Zoupa]

I guess Tel-Aviv is a no-go zone for Jews if we go by Raz's logic...

I don't know what it is about football ultras and the far-right, I genuinely don't see the connection. There are of course left-leaning football clubs, but the discrepancy is jarring in the numbers.

Btw Hapoel Tel Aviv is one of those left-leaning clubs, with Hapoel meaning worker and the hammer and sickle badge.

[Jacob]

I guess Tel-Aviv is a no-go zone for Jews if we go by Raz's logic...

I don't know what it is about football ultras and the far-right, I genuinely don't see the connection. There are of course left-leaning football clubs, but the discrepancy is jarring in the numbers.

Btw Hapoel Tel Aviv is one of those left-leaning clubs, with Hapoel meaning worker and the hammer and sickle badge.

IMO it is that football ultras engage in the kind of ultra-masculinity, symbolic imagery use, and pseudo-militant behaviour that the far-right also loves. There's also a gang-like sense of loyalty and omerta which is very useful for anti-establishment organization (be it gang based or political).

Back in the day (I want to say 80s and 90s) there was some genuine and impactful anti-fascist organization on the terraces. I don't want to make sweeping statements, but it's my impression that the prevalence of far-right ultras was much lower in those days.

It seems that in the West leftist politics appeal less to testosterone adrenaline aficionados and working class aesthetic fanciers than it did in the past for a variety of reasons. We've discussed this at length in the past, and I suspect that the overlaps that exist between football ultras and the far right are part of that process.

Similarly, I've come across stories in several countries about the overlap between MMA culture and far right organizations and recruitment. I think that's part of the same general trend.