Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Josquius]

I don't really care whether I'm 5 or 10% poorer or richer; what irritates me is the loss of my right to live wherever I want in Europe. In addition I will only be able to visit for 90 days at a time which will be a potential nuisance as I retire (as in disabled son moves into supported living) next Easter all going well. The younger generation in my family are pretty cosmopolitan too; quite likely to end up in relationships with Europeans; they will face complicated bureaucratic problems if such relationships get serious.

Thanks a bunch you stupid small-minded brexiter cunts 

Pure politics of spite. Stopping others from having a nice life because they aren't interested /not able to do the same.
I should be alright, just hope I can get a decent passport sorted before too long. But for people like myself 15 years ago... Their life has been royally fucked.

The trouble with the lack of a manufacturing sector is it means a lack of jobs for the working class. This is a huge problem even as things are today. Not everyone can be a lawyer or engineer.
The government really should be heavily encouraging manufacturing even if it struggles to break even, as it makes sense looking at the big picture.
Working class jobs are a vital commodity in the 21st century.

I'd go the other way. I don't think jobs are the issue: careers are. I don't think as a country we were ever good at offering working class/blue collar careers (as Germany is excellent at).

I think we've also someohow ended up linking "status" with degree. So to give nurses and teachers and police officers the necessary level of "status", people need a degree to sign up. That is closing off real careers that were open to people without a degree and I'm not convinced it's a great idea.

Manufacturing is one way - but I think we need to look if actually we can build careers for people in manufacturing (like Germany does) rather than just having basically blue collar enlisted workforce and white collar officers. But I think we should just look more widely at career paths for the over 50% of people who don't go to university. Not least because class is no longer a useful predictor of voting - education is.

Weird.

I am nothing if not anti-rural

The German system would be ideal yes. Fat chance of that with the current lot and brexit alas.
But even short of that just basic half decent work is needed. Even if it won't be helping any people to make a success of themselves we need to get more people who at the least have their heads above water so their kids can be in a situation to make the most of their potential. Hauling people out of the muck of generational unemployment, 30 year old grandparents, the only viable course in life being reality TV or football, etc... Is vital.

And yeah. Giving more respect to less skilled jobs is very much a must. I admit when I was a kid I didn't hold much respect for trades people, it seemed to be the failure course in life as that's the way schools spin it, as did my joiner dad, it's only as I've got older I've come to see it as a perfectly respectful path in life.
I don't know how it was for you in school but with me things really were presented that university educated jobs were just on another planet to anything else and any experience you could get before graduation was just useless.

[Sheilbh]

The German system would be ideal yes. Fat chance of that with the current lot and brexit alas.
But even short of that just basic half decent work is needed. Even if it won't be helping any people to make a success of themselves we need to get more people who at the least have their heads above water so their kids can be in a situation to make the most of their potential. Hauling people out of the muck of generational unemployment, 30 year old grandparents, the only viable course in life being reality TV or football, etc... Is vital.

Agreed. I'm just not 100% convinced that manufacturing is necessarily essential for that. But if we do I think this is why Johnson's positioning of energy transition as a "Green Industrial Revolution" (which was Labour's line until they decided to copy the title "Green New Deal" which is kind of meaningless here - "a Green Blairite job-training program?" ) is quite canny if it can be delivered. We are a legit world leader in off-shore wind (both using it and installing it) we should look to expand our industry manufacturing the turbines etc for it.

And yeah. Giving more respect to less skilled jobs is very much a must. I admit when I was a kid I didn't hold much respect for trades people, it seemed to be the failure course in life as that's the way schools spin it, as did my joiner dad, it's only as I've got older I've come to see it as a perfectly respectful path in life.
I don't know how it was for you in school but with me things really were presented that university educated jobs were just on another planet to anything else and any experience you could get before graduation was just useless.

Yeah - and the whole goal was going to university. I don't think there was ever any talk of other options - I know there were a few kids who wanted to join the army but that was it.

I don't fully know how we fix it but I think part of it is making sure there are careers not just jobs.

[Sheilbh]

I don't know why is this a vote that has to stand? How do we know this is still the will of the people?

Also, how do we know if the people want this deal?

We've had three votes in the space of four years. There's been plenty of time and opportunity to pitch a vision of what Brexit looks like - and the one that said a thin trade deal or no deal won an 80 seat majority. I mean to put it the other way how do we know what votes we can reject because, despite over 70% turnout, people were duped or voted against their interests? And how do we do that?

I think people's expectations are low. I think people generally think Brexit was probably a bad idea. But not enough to want to overturn a democratic vote and no-one has presented them with a credible alternative.

[garbon]

It seems like if you are in charge you pick the vote you like.

[Josquius]

Let's not let the tories rewrite history again.
The tories won the last election less because everyone wants their version of brexit and more because the majority are sick of the topic and "get it done" and out of the way, with zero detail or explanation of what that meant, was far more appealing than evil anti semitic IRA loving comrade Corbyns disjointed promises to deliver everything under the sun.

[Sheilbh]

It seems like if you are in charge you pick the vote you like.

To an extent - that's why winning elections matters. Win, you have a lot of latitude in interpreting that mandate and the people can get rid of you at the end of four years.

But I don't think even a Labour government or a Labour-Lib Dem coalition could have ignored the referendum. They'd go for a confirmatory vote or a second referendum or whatever they'd call it. I felt and I think most other remainers felt that the only way to set aside the referendum result was by another referendum. That was a response from the people on a single issue, only they can withdraw or change it.

Let's not let the tories rewrite history again.
The tories won the last election less because everyone wants their version of brexit and more because the majority are sick of the topic and "get it done" and out of the way, with zero detail or explanation of what that meant, was far more appealing than evil anti semitic IRA loving comrade Corbyns disjointed promises to deliver everything under the sun.

But that doesn't matter. The narrative is irrelevant. The Tory manifesto said: thin deal or no deal and they won an 80 seat majority. There are always other things that cause people to vote the way they do in an election. But if something's in your manifesto, then you've got a mandate to do it.

I agree that Corbyn and wanting to "get it done" were bigger things - but that's the sort of stuff that politics is about: finding a good message and exploiting the weakness of your opponents. But I'd say the Tory manifesto was pretty clear that what they wanted was a thin trade only deal and that's what they've now got. You can disagree with the entire basis of it, but I think it's just not true to say there was no way for people to know this is what Johnson would sign up for/want:

We will keep the UK out of the single market, out of any form of customs union, and end the role of the European Court of Justice.

This future relationship will be one that allows us to:
    Take back control of our laws.
    Take back control of our money.
    Control our own trade policy.
    Introduce an Australian-style points-based immigration system.
    Raise standards in areas like workers' rights, animal welfare, agriculture and the environment.
    Ensure we are in full control of our fishing waters.

We will negotiate a trade agreement next year – one that will strengthen our Union – and we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020. In parallel, we will legislate to ensure high standards of workers' rights, environmental protection and consumer rights.

And looking at this moment I may have been a bit hasty on writing Johnson off because I agree with Glen O'Hara and think this is politically pretty well done. Farage surrendered, the ERG is unlikely to kick up a fuss and he has the votes anyway. Labour will be split on what to do next, while voters will just here "Brexit got done". Plus by taking the negotiations so late and lots of bluster he "looked tough" while actually giving up on stuff he never could have won, and getting a few small/medium-sized wins. We will become gradually poorer and less influential - but it'll be more like a frog in gradually boiling water so people may not notice and, actually, because there will be strong post-covid growth it may well be hidden in the short term. So victory on every front

[Iormlund]

We are a legit world leader in off-shore wind (both using it and installing it) we should look to expand our industry manufacturing the turbines etc for it.

Heh. That's a rather mature market. The UK is decades late and I can't see how they can catch up to Siemens-Gamesa or Vestas (to name two European industry leaders).

[Josquius]

There's a big Siemens turbine factory near here.
Haven't heard much about it and brexit in the way I have the car industry


Just read the government explicitly opted out from Erasmus
Tories gotta tory. Can't be having the poor studying abroad or students getting dangerous ideas of European solidarity.

[Sheilbh]

Just read the government explicitly opted out from Erasmus
Tories gotta tory. Can't be having the poor studying abroad or students getting dangerous ideas of European solidarity.

Yeah - pure vandalism. It is a devolved matter and a scheme that is open to third countries so Scotland and Wales can stay in/join if they want (hopefully they will - Northern Ireland is). Look forward to seeing how underwhelming the UK replacement Turing scheme will be. Apparently it aspires to be more global but with some European participation. We'll see if Gavin Williamson can pull that off

[Richard Hakluyt]

So Turing was hounded by the British state during his lifetime and is now to have his name applied to a poundland sub-Erasmus scheme. They are such a shabby bunch.

[Zanza]

At least they decided to continue participation in Horizon Europe, which is a huge, ambitious research program. Too bad about Erasmus, makes Britain more insular.

[Zanza]

a scheme that is open to third countries so Scotland and Wales can stay in/join if they want (hopefully they will - Northern Ireland is).

I would welcome them. Wales and Scotland are only countries in British domestic perspective though (and some sports), but are not seen as such in international law as state-level parties to treaties. Let's see if they can join European initiatives on their own. Northern Ireland is special.

[Zanza]

At a brief glance this looks pretty bad for Europe. Is there an expiration date on it?
Awaiting an analysis article from someone with a clue.

It's of course a big loss for Europe, but that was inevitable since the referendum.

It would have preferred still tighter partnership with Britain, but that was clearly not a mutual interest.

With the situation as it is, Europe seems to have achieved its strategic goals in the new partnership.

Why do you think this is bad from a European perspective?

[Richard Hakluyt]

Yes, I'm very glad that the scientific cooperation continues; though the scientists themselves will face a certain amount of red tape if they work in the EU and are British and vice versa.

The lack of participation in Erasmus is a big loss; though I believe that the devolved nations can still take part if they wish (this will become clearer as time passes). In the long run we will become more European by living and working with each other (not to mention shagging) and Erasmus is a great accelerant for this.

[Josquius]

At a brief glance this looks pretty bad for Europe. Is there an expiration date on it?
Awaiting an analysis article from someone with a clue.

It's of course a big loss for Europe, but that was inevitable since the referendum.

It would have preferred still tighter partnership with Britain, but that was clearly not a mutual interest.

With the situation as it is, Europe seems to have achieved its strategic goals in the new partnership.

Why do you think this is bad from a European perspective?

Giving free trade without free movement.