Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Agelastus]

So they've rose from 7,485 to 9,801 (+400).

Two threads and about five posts (reading) apart and I see a second "oops" by a British poster; it feeks like the malaise of the England men's football team is spreading. 

Pardon?

7485 to 9801 is +1400 (well, closer to +1300.)

Ah, I didn't mean the amount of increase there, the +400 is the number who voted for UKIP-classic.

Not an "oops" moment then; your phrasing was a little unclear though.

Looking at the full result I am reminded of polls and by-elections post the launch of the SDP when looking at Brexit figures. Assuming we are still nearly 3 years from a general election and also because Brexit have not yet got past the opening hurdle of a by-election win it's too early to draw conclusions from their performance. Their manifesto, when it comes, will not be attractive to a lot of their EU election voters.

Or in other words the Tories fate is not yet fixed. Nor, of course, is Corbyn's.

[Josquius]

This was the Brexit party's golden chance really.
The circumstances were so utterly against Labour given its a swing seat and the entire reason we are having this bielection is their newly elected candidate turned out to be a corrupt crook and the party did a pretty awful job of handling this.

From what I've read Labour's street level campaigners did a really good job of convincing people to come out and vote under threat of Farage.
Even the bookies were calling it for Brexit.
If they can't win here....I don't think its too much of a stretch to imagine them yet again failing to win a seat if we were to have a general election next year; still unlikely I think, they should get some, but possible.

The Lib Dems are curious in this one. They made some pretty substantial gains, but nothing compared to the European election- a sign that when push comes to shove that Labour voters will choose to stay with their party rather than make an anti-brexit protest?

[mongers]

This was the Brexit party's golden chance really.
The circumstances were so utterly against Labour given its a swing seat and the entire reason we are having this bielection is their newly elected candidate turned out to be a corrupt crook and the party did a pretty awful job of handling this.

From what I've read Labour's street level campaigners did a really good job of convincing people to come out and vote under threat of Farage.
Even the bookies were calling it for Brexit.
If they can't win here....I don't think its too much of a stretch to imagine them yet again failing to win a seat if we were to have a general election next year; still unlikely I think, they should get some, but possible.

The Lib Dems are curious in this one. They made some pretty substantial gains, but nothing compared to the European election- a sign that when push comes to shove that Labour voters will choose to stay with their party rather than make an anti-brexit protest?

As was said further up the thread, I think it's more indicative of tactical voting in Peterborough to make sure the Brexit party lost.

[Tamas]

some Labour MPs are finding it harder to celebrate the Peterborough byelection result because Lisa Forbes, the party's winning candidate, had to apologise during the campaign for liking a post that said Theresa May had a "Zionist slave masters agenda".

It will be kind of funny that British politics will eventually fracture around anti-muslim rhetorics vs. anti-jewish rherotics.

[Richard Hakluyt]

It is just so weird that they have to drag Israel and/or the Jews into so many things. It is quite straightforward to say that the Tories despise the working class and are creating a society where these people are little better off than slaves. Why drag the Jews into it.......it just doesn't make sense...........unless you are an anti-semite that is. Occam's razor applies here I think.

[Tamas]

It is just so weird that they have to drag Israel and/or the Jews into so many things. It is quite straightforward to say that the Tories despise the working class and are creating a society where these people are little better off than slaves. Why drag the Jews into it.......it just doesn't make sense...........unless you are an anti-semite that is. Occam's razor applies here I think.

Having lived in Hungary this is no puzzling to me to be honest. For a lot of people there and I guess for a sizeable portion here, "Jewish" is basically a category for people whom they detest for being more successful than they are, same as "gypsy" is a category/slur for people whom they detest for being under them in society.

[Josquius]

It's a mistake to look at British anti semitism in the Hungarian context I think.
The latter is traditional anti semitism. The sort of thing that comes from the right. Based on actual hatred for Jews.
The sort of thing you see on the left... It's a lot more complicated.
It tends to come from a basis of being anti Israel. Which really muddies the waters as there is a lot of non anti semitic criticism of Israel which pro Israel people are keen to paint as anti semitism. Then there are a lot of stupid people who actually do extend dislike of Israel to all Jews, whether wittingly or unwittingly.
Then you've those who make friends with very unsavoury Islamic groups following some sort of weird if the right hate them then they must be OK reasoning (Galloway).
Muddying the waters even more you've those from the right who are anti semites first and foremost purposefully trying to spread their crap in the anti Israel crowd.
The whole thing is just a confusing mess.

[garbon]

The sort of thing you see on the left... It's a lot more complicated.
It tends to come from a basis of being anti Israel. Which really muddies the waters as there is a lot of non anti semitic criticism of Israel which pro Israel people are keen to paint as anti semitism. Then there are a lot of stupid people who actually do extend dislike of Israel to all Jews, whether wittingly or unwittingly.
Then you've those who make friends with very unsavoury Islamic groups following some sort of weird if the right hate them then they must be OK reasoning (Galloway).
Muddying the waters even more you've those from the right who are anti semites first and foremost purposefully trying to spread their crap in the anti Israel crowd.
The whole thing is just a confusing mess.

It isn't that complicated or confusing to Jewish people in the UK.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-antisemitism-political-parties

[Josquius]

The media has done its job well.

[Malthus]

It's a mistake to look at British anti semitism in the Hungarian context I think.
The latter is traditional anti semitism. The sort of thing that comes from the right. Based on actual hatred for Jews.
The sort of thing you see on the left... It's a lot more complicated.
It tends to come from a basis of being anti Israel. Which really muddies the waters as there is a lot of non anti semitic criticism of Israel which pro Israel people are keen to paint as anti semitism. Then there are a lot of stupid people who actually do extend dislike of Israel to all Jews, whether wittingly or unwittingly.
Then you've those who make friends with very unsavoury Islamic groups following some sort of weird if the right hate them then they must be OK reasoning (Galloway).
Muddying the waters even more you've those from the right who are anti semites first and foremost purposefully trying to spread their crap in the anti Israel crowd.
The whole thing is just a confusing mess.

It's an odd thing, being Jewish.

You don't look any different from non-Jews. Unlike race-based issues, where the colour of your skin makes you stand out, if you don't wear some distinctive clothing (and the vast majority of Jews don't) no-one can tell on sight whether you are Jewish or not. Hell, even my last name isn't in the slightest Jewish - its as Anglo-Saxon-Protestant as a name gets. Unless I told someone, no-one would know I was Jewish.

Plus, in big North American cities at least, anti-Jewish prejudice is the exclusive province of nutters. I never see it in real life. Again a huge contrast to my friends who are Black or Muslim. Even in places like Toronto, they will see prejudice in their daily lives from time to time.

And yet ... you are constantly aware you have a bit of a target painted on your back. If you go to any specifically Jewish events, the security has to be tight, because there are apparently nuts out there who would like nothing better than to kill you. World-wide, there are whole nations who hate your guts, places you don't even want to set foot. Lot of European and British politicians apparently agree with them, see "Zionist conspiracies" all over the place.   

[dps]

Plus, in big North American cities at least, anti-Jewish prejudice is the exclusive province of nutters. I never see it in real life.

It's not just the big cities;  the same thing is true in rural Appalachia in my experience.

[Admiral Yi]

I think there's wide spread soft anti-Semitism* in the US.  I've got some soft anti-Semitism myself (shitty tippers, sometimes loudmouths) but counterbalanced by my appreciation for Jewish hotties and humor and brilliance.

[The Brain]

Plus, in big North American cities at least, anti-Jewish prejudice is the exclusive province of nutters. I never see it in real life.

It's not just the big cities;  the same thing is true in rural Appalachia in my experience.

While technically true this gives a false impression of the situation on the ground.

[dps]

sometimes loudmouths

Heck, that ain't a Jewish trait;  that's just being an American.

[Razgovory]

It's a mistake to look at British anti semitism in the Hungarian context I think.
The latter is traditional anti semitism. The sort of thing that comes from the right. Based on actual hatred for Jews.
The sort of thing you see on the left... It's a lot more complicated.
It tends to come from a basis of being anti Israel. Which really muddies the waters as there is a lot of non anti semitic criticism of Israel which pro Israel people are keen to paint as anti semitism. Then there are a lot of stupid people who actually do extend dislike of Israel to all Jews, whether wittingly or unwittingly.
Then you've those who make friends with very unsavoury Islamic groups following some sort of weird if the right hate them then they must be OK reasoning (Galloway).
Muddying the waters even more you've those from the right who are anti semites first and foremost purposefully trying to spread their crap in the anti Israel crowd.
The whole thing is just a confusing mess.

There are lots of forms of anti-semtism.  There is the traditional Christian one (Christ-killers), there race science version that was promoted by the Nazis.  There is the traditional Muslim one ( People who twisted the word of God), and the Arab Nationalist one (How dare you wimpy people beat us in wars and take Jerusalem!), and the all purpose conspiratorial one (Jews eat blood, Jews secretly control this or that).

The last three seem to be the biggest problem in Labor party, though many one form of antisemitism frequently overlaps with another.  The antisemitism in Hungary is looks a lot like the conspiratorial one and that is a frequent one among British antisemitism as well.   The traditional Muslim and the Arab Nationalist narratives are right wing which begs the question:  Why do they find a home in the Left-wing labor party?  Is religious intolerance and racial hatred somehow more acceptable if it comes out of mouth of a person who does not share your religion or skin color?