Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[The Larch]

One curious thing about Corbyns interview; he made a point of 60% of labour supporters voting remain and 40% leave.
Interesting he says this. The numbers I've seen are more 70:30. I wonder where he's getting this from though.

If they categorically deny to have remain as an option, it means you are choosing between versions of leaving, mate. You are just trying not to see this because you don't want to see your party fully committed toward leaving the EU.

Its politics.
Frame it as a direct remain vs leave then the right get to shout about it just being a rerun and whip up rage.
Frame it as accept the deal or not, not clarifying at this early stage whether not means a suicidal brexit (which makes no logical sense. No way to labour want that) or kicking the can down the road, and its hard to argue against it.
A no deal brexit vs. accept the deal referendum is just pointless.

Also I think the speaker means something here, the shadow chancellor rather than Corbyn.

It should absolutely be a rerun of the 1st referendum, the whole negotiating process has shown that the Leave campaign's premises were completely dishonest/bonkers, and the British public was thoroughfully and blatantly lied to. Just two options, No deal Brexit or Remain. At the moment I don't see anything else as remotely viable.

That the Tories took a slight non-binding referendum result in favour of Leave as a mandate for a nuclear full blown Brexit should be infuriating, and that Labour is rolling with it almost more infuriating still.

[Tamas]

Unfortunately, catastrophe has become the path of least resistance for most political actors in this situation, or at least that's how it must seem to them.

[Josquius]

With no deal, the road ends in March.

Assuming nothing else happens.
If we are on course for no deal and the PM is sane then we can cancel article 50 (and then launch it again).

It should absolutely be a rerun of the 1st referendum, the whole negotiating process has shown that the Leave campaign's premises were completely dishonest/bonkers, and the British public was thoroughfully and blatantly lied to. Just two options, No deal Brexit or Remain. At the moment I don't see anything else as remotely viable.

That the Tories took a slight non-binding referendum result in favour of Leave as a mandate for a nuclear full blown Brexit should be infuriating, and that Labour is rolling with it almost more infuriating still.

I agree morally.
But politically that just isn't going to work. The right are really pushing hard to paint the peoples vote campaign as sore losers trying to get a do-over. They've long spread the false story about the EU always forcing countries to re-do votes it doesn't agree with.
Speaking to normal people, you do get a lot of them saying "Brexit sucks but leave won. It's not fair to just do it again.".
Defeating Brexit will be a long term project. At the moment the best we can do is delay it. Maybe in another 2 years it'll be clear it isn't working and it can be safely called off.
For the near future the idea that brexit is still a work in progress has to remain alive.

[The Larch]

It should absolutely be a rerun of the 1st referendum, the whole negotiating process has shown that the Leave campaign's premises were completely dishonest/bonkers, and the British public was thoroughfully and blatantly lied to. Just two options, No deal Brexit or Remain. At the moment I don't see anything else as remotely viable.

That the Tories took a slight non-binding referendum result in favour of Leave as a mandate for a nuclear full blown Brexit should be infuriating, and that Labour is rolling with it almost more infuriating still.

I agree morally.
But politically that just isn't going to work. The right are really pushing hard to paint the peoples vote campaign as sore losers trying to get a do-over. They've long spread the false story about the EU always forcing countries to re-do votes it doesn't agree with.
Speaking to normal people, you do get a lot of them saying "Brexit sucks but leave won. It's not fair to just do it again.".
Defeating Brexit will be a long term project. At the moment the best we can do is delay it. Maybe in another 2 years it'll be clear it isn't working and it can be safely called off.
For the near future the idea that brexit is still a work in progress has to remain alive.

So you're giving up, basically.

[garbon]

With no deal, the road ends in March.

Assuming nothing else happens.
If we are on course for no deal and the PM is sane then we can cancel article 50 (and then launch it again).

Well as things stand less than 6 months before then, what developments would we be expecting?

[The Larch]

With no deal, the road ends in March.

Assuming nothing else happens.
If we are on course for no deal and the PM is sane then we can cancel article 50 (and then launch it again).

Well as things stand less than 6 months before then, what developments would we be expecting?

Also, cancelling art. 50 only to trigger it again at a later date just to get more time would undoubtly piss off everyone mightily.

[Josquius]

Also, cancelling art. 50 only to trigger it again at a later date just to get more time would undoubtly piss off everyone mightily.

Agreed.
It's not an ideal situation.
Hopefully it wouldn't come  to that. They'd say they're going to take their time next time around.
But even Europe could use some delay in this whole mess and that seems the legal way to do it.

So you're giving up, basically.

No. I'm just thinking rationally. Not screaming at nasty things to go away and instead looking at ways to get rid of them that work.

With no deal, the road ends in March.

Assuming nothing else happens.
If we are on course for no deal and the PM is sane then we can cancel article 50 (and then launch it again).

Well as things stand less than 6 months before then, what developments would we be expecting?

Cancelling article 50 wouldn't take long.
A bill through parliament- which Labour, the Lib Dems & the decent half of the Tories could manage and the Lords would pass without issue, and then a letter to the EU.

[The Larch]

But even Europe could use some delay in this whole mess and that seems the legal way to do it.

My feeling is that, increasingly, more and more people in the EU just want to get done with it and continue with other pressing topics, rather than having to keep spending energy and political capital in even more fruitless "negotiation" with May. The UK should be the one more interested in getting a deal, not the other way around.

[The Brain]

How does a unilateral cancellation of Article 50 work? What is the legal basis for it?

[Josquius]

Anyway.
News today Labour are refusing to rule out any option despite the no remain on the ballot talk.

How does a unilateral cancellation of Article 50 work? What is the legal basis for it?

The guy who wrote it says its there.
https://www.ft.com/content/cf3f8aae-5f91-11e8-9334-2218e7146b04

My feeling is that, increasingly, more and more people in the EU just want to get done with it and continue with other pressing topics, rather than having to keep spending energy and political capital in even more fruitless "negotiation" with May. The UK should be the one more interested in getting a deal, not the other way around.

To a large extent yes.
But there is still a faction I think who can see that the British aren't behind May and this insanity and that if things are drawn out it increases the chances of it all being called off.

[The Brain]

How does a unilateral cancellation of Article 50 work? What is the legal basis for it?

The guy who wrote it says its there.
https://www.ft.com/content/cf3f8aae-5f91-11e8-9334-2218e7146b04

I don't subscribe to FT. You do realize that the guy who wrote it saying something doesn't make it so, right? Either he (or anyone else) can explain how it works without having to rely on his opinion or what he says doesn't matter much.

[Josquius]

How does a unilateral cancellation of Article 50 work? What is the legal basis for it?

The guy who wrote it says its there.
https://www.ft.com/content/cf3f8aae-5f91-11e8-9334-2218e7146b04

I don't subscribe to FT. You do realize that the guy who wrote it saying something doesn't make it so, right? Either he (or anyone else) can explain how it works without having to rely on his opinion or what he says doesn't matter much.

Oh, I could view it for free.
French government says its possible too:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-brexit-cancel-france-leave-eu-remain-juncker-europe-a8464341.html

No idea on the exact legalese if thats what you're after.

[The Brain]

How does a unilateral cancellation of Article 50 work? What is the legal basis for it?

The guy who wrote it says its there.
https://www.ft.com/content/cf3f8aae-5f91-11e8-9334-2218e7146b04

I don't subscribe to FT. You do realize that the guy who wrote it saying something doesn't make it so, right? Either he (or anyone else) can explain how it works without having to rely on his opinion or what he says doesn't matter much.

Oh, I could view it for free.
French government says its possible too:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-brexit-cancel-france-leave-eu-remain-juncker-europe-a8464341.html

No idea on the exact legalese if thats what you're after.

I didn't see anything there about a unilateral cancellation being possible. On the contrary she insisted that the door was open and that they want the UK in the EU on the same terms as today, which would be a completely pointless thing to say if the UK could simply cancel article 50 unilaterally.

[garbon]

I thought current status was this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45601394

European Court to rule on whether UK can halt Brexit

The cross-party group of politicians argue that Article 50 can be revoked if MPs vote to do so.

The Court of Session in Edinburgh had previously rejected their bid to have the case referred to European judges.

But they have now won an appeal, and the European Court of Justice will be asked to give a definitive ruling.

The panel of appeal judges at the Court of Session said the "urgency of the issue" - with the UK due to leave the EU on 29 March - meant its request to the European Court was being done under expedited procedure.

...

[Zanza]

I thought current status was this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45601394

European Court to rule on whether UK can halt Brexit

The cross-party group of politicians argue that Article 50 can be revoked if MPs vote to do so.

The Court of Session in Edinburgh had previously rejected their bid to have the case referred to European judges.

But they have now won an appeal, and the European Court of Justice will be asked to give a definitive ruling.

The panel of appeal judges at the Court of Session said the "urgency of the issue" - with the UK due to leave the EU on 29 March - meant its request to the European Court was being done under expedited procedure.

...

Yes, it is far from clear whether the UK can unilaterally stop the Article 50 proceedings.