Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Josquius]

Already the map showing immigrant % vs brexit vote (more or less opposites in most of the country) is funny enough without making stuff up.

[Tamas]

Labour is now likely to back a second referendum BUT without staying in the EU being an option on the ballot.

Yesterday in Liverpool the thousands demanding a second vote all waved EU flags. Don't tell me they don't realise people wanting a second vote want it because they want to remain. Just like the Tories they are paralysed by trying to keep their voter base on both sides of the divide.

[Josquius]

Labour is now likely to back a second referendum BUT without staying in the EU being an option on the ballot.

Yesterday in Liverpool the thousands demanding a second vote all waved EU flags. Don't tell me they don't realise people wanting a second vote want it because they want to remain. Just like the Tories they are paralysed by trying to keep their voter base on both sides of the divide.

Seems smart though not to put remaining directly on the ballot. This plays into the hands of those who would have the People's Vote painted as just a do-over of the original referendum.
Smarter seems to be a simple- do you accept the deal on offer? Yes/No.
If no wins then brexit is delayed and its up to the government to go and find a better deal, when they fail at this then brexit is cancelled.

[Tamas]

Labour is now likely to back a second referendum BUT without staying in the EU being an option on the ballot.

Yesterday in Liverpool the thousands demanding a second vote all waved EU flags. Don't tell me they don't realise people wanting a second vote want it because they want to remain. Just like the Tories they are paralysed by trying to keep their voter base on both sides of the divide.

Seems smart though not to put remaining directly on the ballot. This plays into the hands of those who would have the People's Vote painted as just a do-over of the original referendum.
Smarter seems to be a simple- do you accept the deal on offer? Yes/No.
If no wins then brexit is delayed and its up to the government to go and find a better deal, when they fail at this then brexit is cancelled.

Yeah but if staying is not an option then rejecting the deal means a no-deal exit.

What I find especially repulsive is that both major parties are full of reckless political gamblers/ideologues. Both for a crook like Johnson, and ideological crusaders like Rees-Mogg or Corbyn/Hammond the chaos of a hard Brexit must seem as ripe ground to be free to do what they want.

[garbon]

Yeah, as far as I know the case on whether Britain could now forestall its own exit is clear, so a vote on the deal sounds like a waste of taxpayer money.

[Monoriu]

I remember seeing the busts of the saviours of Britain in Buckingham palace.  If I remember correctly, these were Marlborough, Wellington, Nelson, and Churchill.  I once thought that future generations would marvel at the bust of Teresa May and recount the epic tale about how she pulled Britain back from the brink. 

Seems the likelihood of that happening is now greatly diminished. 

[The Larch]

Labour is now likely to back a second referendum BUT without staying in the EU being an option on the ballot.

Yesterday in Liverpool the thousands demanding a second vote all waved EU flags. Don't tell me they don't realise people wanting a second vote want it because they want to remain. Just like the Tories they are paralysed by trying to keep their voter base on both sides of the divide.

Seems smart though not to put remaining directly on the ballot.

On the contrary, not including Remain as an option makes a 2nd referendum pointless, because there's no deal or plan to agree with or not. The 2nd referendum should most probably consist in choosing between No deal Brexit or Remain, given that a deal looks increasingly unlikely.

[Threviel]

All this talk of especially bad prime ministers got me thinking. Which 20th century prime ministers has actually been good? Has there been any good sine Salisbury?

The obvious ones like Lloyd George, Churchill and Thatcher could be nominated, but they have lots of detractors also. But who else has been extra good or bad?

[Duque de Bragança]

We already had polls on the best and worst British Prime ministers.

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,15452.0.html

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,15450.0.html

[Josquius]

Labour is now likely to back a second referendum BUT without staying in the EU being an option on the ballot.

Yesterday in Liverpool the thousands demanding a second vote all waved EU flags. Don't tell me they don't realise people wanting a second vote want it because they want to remain. Just like the Tories they are paralysed by trying to keep their voter base on both sides of the divide.

Seems smart though not to put remaining directly on the ballot. This plays into the hands of those who would have the People's Vote painted as just a do-over of the original referendum.
Smarter seems to be a simple- do you accept the deal on offer? Yes/No.
If no wins then brexit is delayed and its up to the government to go and find a better deal, when they fail at this then brexit is cancelled.

Yeah but if staying is not an option then rejecting the deal means a no-deal exit.

What I find especially repulsive is that both major parties are full of reckless political gamblers/ideologues. Both for a crook like Johnson, and ideological crusaders like Rees-Mogg or Corbyn/Hammond the chaos of a hard Brexit must seem as ripe ground to be free to do what they want.

That's an unfair assumption to make.
Not accepting the brexit deal on offer far more means remaining to me. Unless it is specifically spelled out that the choice is no deal brexit or brexit it seems more likely that rejecting it means try again.

[Tamas]

If they categorically deny to have remain as an option, it means you are choosing between versions of leaving, mate. You are just trying not to see this because you don't want to see your party fully committed toward leaving the EU.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Barnier helpfully put the leave options on a single slide a year or so back :

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/slide_presented_by_barnier_at_euco_15-12-2017.pdf

The only worthwhile referendum would be if the governement opted for one of these options and ran it against remain.

[Tamas]

Barnier helpfully put the leave options on a single slide a year or so back :

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/slide_presented_by_barnier_at_euco_15-12-2017.pdf

The only worthwhile referendum would be if the governement opted for one of these options and ran it against remain.

That slide is a particular reason why acting like the refusal of Chequers is a shock surprise is incredibly low form from the government.

[Josquius]

One curious thing about Corbyns interview; he made a point of 60% of labour supporters voting remain and 40% leave.
Interesting he says this. The numbers I've seen are more 70:30. I wonder where he's getting this from though.

If they categorically deny to have remain as an option, it means you are choosing between versions of leaving, mate. You are just trying not to see this because you don't want to see your party fully committed toward leaving the EU.

Its politics.
Frame it as a direct remain vs leave then the right get to shout about it just being a rerun and whip up rage.
Frame it as accept the deal or not, not clarifying at this early stage whether not means a suicidal brexit (which makes no logical sense. No way to labour want that) or kicking the can down the road, and its hard to argue against it.
A no deal brexit vs. accept the deal referendum is just pointless.

Also I think the speaker means something here, the shadow chancellor rather than Corbyn.

[garbon]

With no deal, the road ends in March.