Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Richard Hakluyt]

....yeah...That's Sadiq Khan alright
Khan is a great example that talk of Islam being incompatible with western ideals is bollocks.

If he was, he would've renounced Islam.

You might be more interested in the case of Sajid Javid, our current home secretary. He comes from a muslim family but has dropped it. A quote from Wikipedia :

"Javid is said to have received religious hate mail in the form of a "Punish a Muslim day" parcel; as of March 2018, he was the fifth British MP to receive such abuse.[105] However, Javid himself is not religious[106], whilst his wife is a practising Christian. [107] In describing his background he said:

"   'My own family's heritage is Muslim. Myself and my four brothers were brought up to believe in God, but I do not practise any religion. My wife is a practising Christian and the only religion practised in my house is Christianity." [108][107]   ""

[OttoVonBismarck]

The issue with "mainstream" Muslims is they will always be a very small minority, and aren't really Muslims in any meaningful sense. The progressives/globalists will try to portray them as the representative of Islam in the West, when in reality these people would be considered apostates back in the MENA/South Asia region. They serve as a mask for the fact the vast majority of Muslims who live in the West hold reprehensible views. They would be doing a great service for mankind if they just said "Look, I was raised Muslim but I recognize its values are immoral and incompatible with Western ideals, so while I take some positives away from that upbringing, I am no longer a Muslim." These "cuddly Muslims" are a pernicious threat because they are exaggerated in number and people just assume they're the end result of all Muslim peoples who live in Western societies, when evidence shows that is not the case at all.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Khan is a great example that talk of Islam being incompatible with western ideals is bollocks.

I think it is obvious that Muslims are compatible with western ideals. I think Islam will have to reform itself to be compatible but, does it really need to be compatible? People are perfectly capable of holding contradictory ideas at once. People who cannot do the mental gymnastics will just become ex-Muslims. It is the same that has happened with fundamentalist Christianity and Judaism.

I mean how devout and traditional is this Khan guy anyway?

If Islam had some sort of reformation/enlightenment sure, but Islam isn't nearly as hierarchical as Christianity and the signs that this will ever happen are minimal in my mind. If anything I think Islam may have started going in the other direction in the 20th century, with many Muslim scholars specifically working to define Islam in a way that protects it from "infection" with Western values.

FWIW if we had people practicing middle ages Christianity in the West I'd view them as a serious threat to our societies as well--this has nothing to do with a specific dislike of "Islam" per se, just the consequences of Islamic beliefs.

[Tamas]

The impression I get about Khan is that he is a bit more religious than a typical paper-christian/paper-muslim, but I strongly suspect that most of this is for show. It won't turn away anyone from voting for him other than those who are already turned off by a brown man, but it will help to bring out the muslim support to have a few photo-opps at the mosque.
Its kind of like the situation with American politicians and christianity. Even the not particularly religious ones have to pretend.

....yeah...That's Sadiq Khan alright
Khan is a great example that talk of Islam being incompatible with western ideals is bollocks.

If he was, he would've renounced Islam.

Meh. Believing in sky monsters is a bit silly, but until it starts impacting his job (e.g. Tim Farron) then he's welcome to keep doing so.
I really don't care whether politicians representing me are religious or not as long as they're decent people who do a good job of taking care of the country.

Come to think I'd actually give a bit more leeway to muslims than to christians in this given muslims are largely 2nd-4th generation immigrants from rather less developed countries.  It's more understandable that faith might hold stronger with these minority groups than with the majority.
Given time though, as long as we can keep the far right under control and stop them blindly doing what daesh want, European muslims are bit by bit becoming nothing more than cultural muslims. With time and cross-cultural marriages even this fades.

I do wonder if giving them more leeway than Christians is a good policy though. Certainly they should not be harassed for their faith, but if the left disapproves of overt Christian zealotry, the same disapproval should be given to its Muslim version as well.

Already the left seems to be lenient on the bigotry and misogynistic aspects of Muslims religious views and the everyday life they result in. This will prove counterproductive for everyone, including and especially to Muslim minorities.

[Valmy]

The issue with "mainstream" Muslims is they will always be a very small minority, and aren't really Muslims in any meaningful sense.

Will they?

We'll see. As for their being 'Muslims' thing...yeah I am not qualified to say who exactly can use that label and who cannot.

[The Brain]

Khan is a great example that talk of Islam being incompatible with western ideals is bollocks.

I think it is obvious that Muslims are compatible with western ideals. I think Islam will have to reform itself to be compatible but, does it really need to be compatible? People are perfectly capable of holding contradictory ideas at once. People who cannot do the mental gymnastics will just become ex-Muslims. It is the same that has happened with fundamentalist Christianity and Judaism.

I mean how devout and traditional is this Khan guy anyway?

If Islam had some sort of reformation/enlightenment sure, but Islam isn't nearly as hierarchical as Christianity and the signs that this will ever happen are minimal in my mind. If anything I think Islam may have started going in the other direction in the 20th century, with many Muslim scholars specifically working to define Islam in a way that protects it from "infection" with Western values.

FWIW if we had people practicing middle ages Christianity in the West I'd view them as a serious threat to our societies as well--this has nothing to do with a specific dislike of "Islam" per se, just the consequences of Islamic beliefs.

Reformation? I don't think Islam needs more fundamentalist splinter groups. Enlightenment sure, that would be great.

[garbon]

Anyway, the point was that no would should actually care when OttoVonCrankyPants says something ridiculous Muslims in the context of Brexit. Move on.

[Tamas]

Tyr's point made me think though: the Left IS more lenient with Muslims than Christians, while the Right is very much the other way around.

If things go bad enough in the UK the next 10-20 years or so, can we see the political trenchlines drawn in a way that basically at least non-moderate leftist view will be associated with being Muslim or at least supportive of Muslim religious practices and world views, while being right of the center will also mean being a Christian bigot?

I mean, already we have the Right they way they are, and we have the left wary of insulting Muslim sensibilities, or Labour tryin to condemn anti-semitism without condemning it.

[garbon]

I don't see why that would come to be the case. What would be the compelling reason for British people to re-group themselves by types of religious bigotry?

[Josquius]

If Islam had some sort of reformation/enlightenment sure, but Islam isn't nearly as hierarchical as Christianity and the signs that this will ever happen are minimal in my mind. If anything I think Islam may have started going in the other direction in the 20th century, with many Muslim scholars specifically working to define Islam in a way that protects it from "infection" with Western values.

Islam is in the middle of its reformation right now. That's a big part of the volatility in the middle east.

Hopefully, if we take the establishment of Saudi Arabia as Martin Luther, then Daesh is the 30 years war and the enlightenment isn't far off.

FWIW if we had people practicing middle ages Christianity in the West I'd view them as a serious threat to our societies as well--this has nothing to do with a specific dislike of "Islam" per se, just the consequences of Islamic beliefs.

But you know that extreme Islamophobic policies are exactly how the Islamic extremists want us to react to their provocations right?

Tyr's point made me think though: the Left IS more lenient with Muslims than Christians, while the Right is very much the other way around.

If things go bad enough in the UK the next 10-20 years or so, can we see the political trenchlines drawn in a way that basically at least non-moderate leftist view will be associated with being Muslim or at least supportive of Muslim religious practices and world views, while being right of the center will also mean being a Christian bigot?

I mean, already we have the Right they way they are, and we have the left wary of insulting Muslim sensibilities, or Labour tryin to condemn anti-semitism without condemning it.

This article sums it up well I think:   https://www.thenational.ae/opinion/calling-sadiq-khan-a-muslim-mayor-is-a-dangerous-myth-1.183238

Basically the left is more forgiving of muslims than of christians because muslim and christian aren't particularly equal terms in the modern UK.
To say you are a christian is to say that you are particularly religious. That you have christian ancestors or even that you were christened is so generic as to not even be worth noting.
To be muslim however...it could mean you're religious. Or it could equally mean that your grandparents happened to be Pakistani. It's very tied up with the identity of this minority group, it is their point of differentiation from the majority and from other asians.
That in practice they drink, eat pork and can't remember the last time they entered a mosque doesn't change the fact that they're muslim.
It's like when Americans go on about being Irish.

[Valmy]

I get that and it is perfectly reasonable. But, of course, then you get stuff like calling ex-Muslim activists Islamophobic which is a bad look. But how widespread that sort of thing is is not clear. I presume most leftist people do not go along with stuff like that.

[Tamas]

To be muslim however...it could mean you're religious. Or it could equally mean that your grandparents happened to be Pakistani. It's very tied up with the identity of this minority group, it is their point of differentiation from the majority and from other asians.

That's fine. But if somebody is a bigot he or she should be called out for it regardless of race, origin, or religion. If you say that you hold Person A living in your country to different standards than normal, it means you do not consider them part of the same society that you are part of, basically.

[Josquius]

To be muslim however...it could mean you're religious. Or it could equally mean that your grandparents happened to be Pakistani. It's very tied up with the identity of this minority group, it is their point of differentiation from the majority and from other asians.

That's fine. But if somebody is a bigot he or she should be called out for it regardless of race, origin, or religion. If you say that you hold Person A living in your country to different standards than normal, it means you do not consider them part of the same society that you are part of, basically.

I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

If we imagine levels of religious idiocy on a scale of 1-10 then a grade 8 muslim and a grade 8 christian are both equally deserving of derision.
However what we have in Khan and the like is a grade 2 muslim; yet he goes around calling himself a muslim where a grade 2 christian wouldn't.
We get this and don't group him in with the grade 8s. Though if someone proclaims thenmselves a christian...then the initial assumption is they are from the higher end of the scale.

[Valmy]

However what we have in Khan and the like is a grade 2 muslim; yet he goes around calling himself a muslim where a grade 2 christian wouldn't.
We get this and don't group him in with the grade 8s. Though if someone proclaims thenmselves a christian...then the initial assumption is they are from the higher end of the scale.

Really? Huh. I mean I guess I figured in the Church of England even some members of the clergy are pretty low grade. So this strikes me as an odd assumption to make.

[Razgovory]

Though if someone proclaims thenmselves a christian...then the initial assumption is they are from the higher end of the scale.

Why?