Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Sheilbh]

....Both?

The Leave campaign - especially the 'unofficial' UKIP one has been pretty racist and there's left-wing reasons to leave? I don't see what the contradiction is.

Though that is a solid assumption

There contradiction is in the fact that the reasons given by you as the leftist ones and by right wingers are opposite to each other.

If you say that one of the leftist reasons to leave is that the EU is becoming "fortress Europe" and one of the rightist reasons to leave is that the EU is making it too easy for Muslim immigrants to enter the EU and the UK - isn't that a contradiction?

Not really. I think it's a difference of perspective. Most people voting Leave think immigration's too high and want it reduced. The fact that I disagree doesn't invalidate or contradict that.

I think strange bedfellows is the nature of plebiscites. Me and the Kippers are unlikely to vote for the same party, we might yes or no together for wildly different reasons.

[Richard Hakluyt]

It reminds me a lot of the left wing Catalan  separatists and their cognitive dissonance. They will point out that Spain has turned harshly to the right in immigration, fiscal and social policy, and that it would be best to untie ourselves from it. Yet they will ignore that Catalan separatism is being driven by the right, and that Catalonia has had more conservative governments than Spain.

It is a case of being a Catalan trumping their leftyness.

[Martinus]

It reminds me a lot of the left wing Catalan  separatists and their cognitive dissonance. They will point out that Spain has turned harshly to the right in immigration, fiscal and social policy, and that it would be best to untie ourselves from it. Yet they will ignore that Catalan separatism is being driven by the right, and that Catalonia has had more conservative governments than Spain.

Or like the left harping about patriarchy and conservative religion in the Western world while embracing Muslims, who make the most fundamentalist Christian reactionaries look positively feminist and progressive.

[garbon]

Marti's attempts to make connections and analogies continue to be abysmal. You would think after such a long period of time of having his errors pointed out on Languish he would show some improvement.  I guess old dogs can't learn new tricks.

[Josquius]

Channel 4 news in Newcastle last night.
Asking a random man in the pub if he was in or out (always wise).
Out
Why?
Bloody foreigners!
Are there many foreigners in Newcastle?
...well...aye! Get yourself up the west end. It's full of them up there!

The west end of Newcastle.  Known for its long standing Pakistani community. It's just ridiculous how this referendum is becoming about immigration in general

Maps.cdrc.ac.uk gives a good look

A comedian last night made an excellent point about the ridiculousness of these people in very white eu foreigner free areas being the strongest for leave - I never knew they cared so much about London.
If you ask a man in sunderland about transport does he rant about how the victoria line needs extending?

[Richard Hakluyt]

Cool map 

[Monoriu]

I think there are a lot of people who are left behind due to austerity, free trade, globalisation and technological improvements.  They feel ignored by the establishment, so they grab every opportunity they can leverage on.  Their message is, unless the haves give us more of the pie, otherwise we'll make life miserable for you by voting Brexit or Trump and make sure you don't get any either.   

[Martinus]

Yeah, the "reason" for voting Brexit, whether on the left or on the right, is the fuck you vote. Of course, it's the left who normally markets itself as the one that is open minded, thinks about common good and whatnot, so it sounds more hypocritical when they are for Brexit, than the right wingers, who never concealed their xenophobia and egoism.

[Zanza]

You are the second biggest country and you have natural allies. Use it and don't just sulk in the corner.

This is the thing that has annoyed me most about Cameron.

Mostly for domestic political reasons he had to present the entire 'renegotiation' as him bravely fighting Brussels in the model of Thatcher. I think he could have achieved far more had he basically pointed out the falling credibility, legitimacy and belief in Europe and tried to argue for reform within. I think there were potential allies for that. I also think some of that sort of stuff - ie. properly recognising that we'll never join the Euro and need safeguards for that, but we shouldn't be able to hold up further Eurozone integration - would be far more substantial than what he got. To do that he'd have to make the pro-European case for reform which he just can't/won't.

So instead we got lots of phoney arguments over very little. Harold Wilson, but worse.

There is a non-zero chance that he goes into history as the worst British PM ever. If England leaves the EU and Scotland leaves the UK over that, he would be a total and utter failure.

[garbon]

Yeah, the "reason" for voting Brexit, whether on the left or on the right, is the fuck you vote.

And thus underlining a key issue with direct democracy. Major decisions should be decided upon by people who can evince at least some semblance of emotional maturity.

[Martinus]

Yeah, the "reason" for voting Brexit, whether on the left or on the right, is the fuck you vote.

And thus underlining a key issue with direct democracy. Major decisions should be decided upon by people who can evince at least some semblance of emotional maturity.

No disagreement from me.

[garbon]

You are the second biggest country and you have natural allies. Use it and don't just sulk in the corner.

This is the thing that has annoyed me most about Cameron.

Mostly for domestic political reasons he had to present the entire 'renegotiation' as him bravely fighting Brussels in the model of Thatcher. I think he could have achieved far more had he basically pointed out the falling credibility, legitimacy and belief in Europe and tried to argue for reform within. I think there were potential allies for that. I also think some of that sort of stuff - ie. properly recognising that we'll never join the Euro and need safeguards for that, but we shouldn't be able to hold up further Eurozone integration - would be far more substantial than what he got. To do that he'd have to make the pro-European case for reform which he just can't/won't.

So instead we got lots of phoney arguments over very little. Harold Wilson, but worse.

There is a non-zero chance that he goes into history as the worst British PM ever. If England leaves the EU and Scotland leaves the UK over that, he would be a total and utter failure.

Apparently most rankings of the British PMs shown Anthony Eden as the worst. That strikes me as a bit odd but yeah would leave ample room for Cameron to snatch that crown.

[Sheilbh]

Wonder what the effect of Glastonbury will be? Reminds me of the Irish coalition row of I think whether to have an election on the university holidays or when there was a big rugby game in Dublin?

Edit: By the by, my bet is Remain 54-46 Leave.

[mongers]

Wonder what the effect of Glastonbury will be? Reminds me of the Irish coalition row of I think whether to have an election on the university holidays or when there was a big rugby game in Dublin?

Edit: By the by, my bet is Remain 54-46 Leave.

I think that would be a interesting consideration if the UK was the size of the West country or that region was voting for UDI.


Good point about stating your bet, I think it's now time for us 'pundits' here to put up or shut up.

I'm gonna say Leave win by 51-49.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Remain 52-48