Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Josquius]

You want planning reform to stop people mouthing off to local media?

To stop this kind of shit actually stopping development.

[Gups]

It doesn't.

[Norgy]

After some years now as a journalist, my experience is that almost all officials would really like us not poke into their work. And most have gag-orders, so thank you 11th of September for that.

Al-Qaeda surely would benefit from me writing a piece about property development in shitsticks Norway.

[Josquius]

It doesn't.

How?
This goes against so much reporting on things like hs2 and myriad other developments over the years.

[Sheilbh]

I'm pleased so far, good start. The pressure will ramp up soon though with so much to do and so little money to spend.

Same. A decent start.

Pressure will ramp but I think they've got a few months of things the Tories just left them to deal with. We all knew the prison crisis was coming, but by the sounds of it basically the entire public sector had pay reviews and the recommendation was above inflation rises of 5-6% (which I think is justifiable). But the previous government just sat on them for a few months. I imagine that can't be helpful for Reeves.

A bit annoyed they are doing yet another  planning bill, when they could achieve nearly everything they want to through secondary legislation and amending guidance but I suppose it's more £££ for us planning lawyers.

Swings and roundabouts

Yeah I feel they should be looking to do what they want through secondary legislation etc. I suppose with some of that there's possibly a JR risk though. If you've got a majority this big it might be quicker to pass a bill than do the necessary consultations and assessments.

[Gups]

It doesn't.

How?
This goes against so much reporting on things like hs2 and myriad other developments over the years.

What, the HS2 project that got permission despite loads of people mouthing off to the local press about how dreadful it would be?

[Josquius]

It doesn't.

How?
This goes against so much reporting on things like hs2 and myriad other developments over the years.

What, the HS2 project that got permission despite loads of people mouthing off to the local press about how dreadful it would be?

And the Chiltern tunnel and other unnecessary scope increases?
The constant reporting eg https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-03/hs2-latest-did-nimbyism-derail-manchester-leg-of-high-speed-rail-line?srndpremium-UK was nonsense?

I'm really fascinated by this view nimbyism isn't an issue in British construction  as it really is the  overriding narrative I see.

[Admiral Yi]

You seem to be missing Guppy's point, which I believe is that no reform can stop a person from having that opinion or from voicing it in the press.  Unless you want to make it illegal to hold certain thoughts.

[Josquius]

You seem to be missing Guppy's point, which I believe is that no reform can stop a person from having that opinion or from voicing it in the press.  Unless you want to make it illegal to hold certain thoughts.

Say whatever you want. It's stupid to suggest planning reform would have anything to do with this.
The problem is the disproportionate power and influence a handful of obstructionists can have to massively screw things up.

[Sheilbh]

I could be convinced to support some light thought crimes targeting NIMBYs

(Also people who talk about "gentle density" )

[Admiral Yi]

I could be convinced to support some light thought crimes targeting NIMBYs

(Also people who talk about "gentle density" )

Ban brutalism fanbois and i'm on board.

[HVC]

I could be convinced to support some light thought crimes targeting NIMBYs

(Also people who talk about "gentle density" )

With your hate of cars and love of terrible architecture I don't trust you with that power

[Gups]

It doesn't.

How?
This goes against so much reporting on things like hs2 and myriad other developments over the years.

What, the HS2 project that got permission despite loads of people mouthing off to the local press about how dreadful it would be?

And the Chiltern tunnel and other unnecessary scope increases?
The constant reporting eg https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-03/hs2-latest-did-nimbyism-derail-manchester-leg-of-high-speed-rail-line?srndpremium-UK was nonsense?

I'm really fascinated by this view nimbyism isn't an issue in British construction  as it really is the  overriding narrative I see.

You've moved the goalposts. You said people complaining about development stopped that development and cited HS2 as an example. Now you are complaining that it makes it more expensive, which is a different matter.

I'm not sure what your proposal is. The Chiltern tunnel was imposed by Parliament because a railway at grade would have a major impact on an area of outstanding natural beauty. There was a cosst v disbenefit decision to be made whcih was made by MPs and ministers as our elected representatives.

Are you suggesting that environmental groups and constituents should be prohibited from making representations to Parliament or banned from speaking in the press or campaigning? History - from Eastern Europe to New York under Moses tells us pretty clearly that removing communities from the planning process does not improve decision making or outcomes.

[Josquius]

You've moved the goalposts. You said people complaining about development stopped that development and cited HS2 as an example. Now you are complaining that it makes it more expensive, which is a different matter.

I'm not sure what your proposal is. The Chiltern tunnel was imposed by Parliament because a railway at grade would have a major impact on an area of outstanding natural beauty. There was a cosst v disbenefit decision to be made whcih was made by MPs and ministers as our elected representatives.

Are you suggesting that environmental groups and constituents should be prohibited from making representations to Parliament or banned from speaking in the press or campaigning? History - from Eastern Europe to New York under Moses tells us pretty clearly that removing communities from the planning process does not improve decision making or outcomes.

I haven't moved the goalposts at all.
How do you expect people complaining about HS2 are going to be able to stop it with words alone? This isn't Skyrim.
Forcing up the timescales and costs are key intermediate steps. The vastly inflated budget was the main reason for HS2 being cancelled.

You're going in quite a black and white direction here. The options aren't leave everything entirely as it is or nobody gets a say ever.
A key part of what Labour seem to be proposing is to have a lot more done regionally than on a pure local council level, which should encourage thinking far more along the lines of "What is best for the country" than "What will make sure we win the next local election?"
Local communities having a say is fine in theory- in  practice it usually means a small number of dedicated moaners causing massive disruption whilst the majority of the community isn't particularly bothered if something gets built.

[Gups]

You're as slippery as an eel Jos. You started by saying we needed plannng reform in response to people complaining to the local media about development. When I asked why, you said it was to stop them stopping development and cited HS2 as an example. You now say how can people complaining about HS2 expect to stop it with words alone.

The Chiltern tunnel cost about £500m extra compared to an equivalent railway at grade. Less than 1% of the costs overrun of £70bn. It was not the reason for cancellation.

http://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2016-0899/161007-Independent_Cost_Review-Hillingdon_Working_Group_Report-Final.pdf