Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Valmy]

It isn't just Muslims who freak out about Gaza though.

Anyway I posed it more as a question or rather an assumption. Feel free to set me straight. I have spent a grand total of one day in the UK in my lifetime.

Though we are planning to take a big trip there in five years to visit all the places our ancestors came from (England  ) and do all the usual touristy stuff, presuming it has not become an Islamic Caliphate in the meantime of course.

[Tamas]

It isn't just Muslims who freak out about Gaza though.

In terms of actually influencing election results in the UK? Yes it is just them.

[Sheilbh]

That's right - the big shift has been the decline of Christianity. And a lot of that Christianity is, I suspect, quite soft, cultural, Christmas & Easter Christianity - I could be wrong but I suspect we'll see similarly large declines next time:


The areas, churches and types of Christianity that are doing well are actually driven by immigration. I saw a piece a while ago (can't remember where) - and it's definitely my experience, living in South London - but Christianity in London is strongly African and Latin American.

I think part of it is that I think the UK probably has some of the most prominent Muslim politicians in Western countries. Particularly Sadiq Khan and, though he's stepped down, Humza Yousaf. So there are observant Muslims who practice their faith in prominent public positions.

Sadiq Khan particularly gets a huge amount of attention and hate from the far-right across the world (and in the UK - he and his family have police protection which I don't believe previous mayors have needed). Every time we have, say, Ramadan lights or Khan breaking fast in Trafalgar Square a lot of American nutters go absolutely wild about London has fallen. They don't notice/know that we have Christmas lights, a giant menorah and that Trafalgars Square hosts Purim, Vaisakhi, Diwali, St George's Day, St Patrick's Day etc celebrations. I'd say every other weekend there are stages going up there for a Mayor of London event. But I think that focus on Khan also gets picked up with stuff on the global right about Britain's cowardly and unarmed police plus knife violence. It's very odd.

I don't know if Yousaf got picked up as much but I suspect his first social media post on becoming First Minister was him and his family praying in Bute House might also have contributed to it.

[Sheilbh]

Obviously Vances claim is utter BS the only point I would challenge is Islam not having a cultural influence. It is a minor but not insignificant political force at one hand by providing a target for the far right and by apparently pan-Muslims matters being a high priority election issue for some, notably Labour getting shafted for not sorting out a Gaza cease fire from opposition.

Yeah. I think that's fair.

I'd go beyond Muslims and say that I think we are starting to see some signs of communal politics in the UK.

In part this, I think, reflect Modi's general approach of reaching out to (and also wanting more control of) the Indian diaspora - so he was joined on stage by Cameron at a massive rally way back then. He's done similar big rallies in the US. During the Indian election there were BJP people doing those car rallies.

But I also think that the seat with the lowest swing against the Tories is also the most Hindu seat or that the only seat the Tories won was in Leicester, the most diverse city in the country, where there are signs that basically Hindus went Tory, Sikhs and Muslims went Labour (plus the two former Labour MPs who had resigned in disgrace and were now running as independents).

I think the allegations of harassment on the campaign trail etc from Galloway inspired groups of young Muslim men in some of those seats that went for pro-Gaza independents is also a concern.

Having said all that I think Vance and the online discourse of "Britain has fallen", it's all sharia and knife crime makes talking about those things - which I don't think are necessarily positive - more difficult.

[Valmy]

I'd go beyond Muslims and say that I think we are starting to see some signs of communal politics in the UK.

Muslims are a minority, among other minorities, with a political impact seems distinctly different from Islam has taken over the UK. To what extent are Islamic values influencing non-Muslims in their daily lives?

Having said all that I think Vance and the online discourse of "Britain has fallen", it's all sharia and knife crime makes talking about those things - which I don't think are necessarily positive - more difficult.

Panicking about sharia isn't necessarily positive? And what is more difficult?

[Valmy]

In ten years Islam has increased by 1.6%, while non-religious has increased 12%. Clearly the rapid growth of Islam is the story here 

By the way the other immigrant religions are also growth very slowly...which kind of suggests to me that they are also losing a non-insignificant amount of people to the non-religious. And you know my concerns about Muslim communities and persecuting apostates. I hope that kind of shit doesn't happen in the UK.

[Richard Hakluyt]

There are more sikhs than I expected.

My town is about 20% muslim now and there are certain effects on daily life. Many of the restaurants are halal for example and also some places don't serve alcohol. There is also a proliferation of ice cream/dessert type places which people go to instead of pubs; I tried one once and felt the intake of sugar was far more dangerous than having a couple of pints down the pub 

In terms of personal safety the districts with a high proportion of muslims are fine. The places you don't want to go to are a couple of council estates where the more unpleasant sections of the white working class live.

[Sheilbh]

Muslims are a minority, among other minorities, with a political impact seems distinctly different from Islam has taken over the UK. To what extent are Islamic values influencing non-Muslims in their daily lives?

Oh no that's bullshit that only the nutters believe.

I don't think there's any impact on people's daily lives beyond, you know, the normal stuff like Halal in the supermarket, late night ice cream cafes, people wearing headscarves etc.

But I went to Marseille recently (loved it) and when I was looking at what to do I was really struck by the tone of so many of travel blogs and Q&As etc, which were aimed at Americans. It was basically you know "are you going to be violently attacked or mugged if you travel here". And I think there are some Americans who are surprised and troubled by the reality of modern multi-cultural Europe so may found those things weirdly threatening. So maybe Halal is concerning for them because they're not used to it and it's not how they imagine Europe to be - but I imagine residents of American cities would see nothing different. I think especially given the whole white Christian nationalist stuff in parts of the US right. As I say I think that's the appeal of Poland and Hungary etc.

Panicking about sharia isn't necessarily positive? And what is more difficult?

I think there are issues around communal politics and some of the campaigning locally by Galloway-inspired young men over Gaza (which involved intimidation and threats to other campaigns) that are not positive and need to be talked about. That is more difficult because there's people online and a US VP candidate panicking about sharia.

By the way the other immigrant religions are also growth very slowly...which kind of suggests to me that they are also losing a non-insignificant amount of people to the non-religious. And you know my concerns about Muslim communities and persecuting apostates. I hope that kind of shit doesn't happen in the UK.

Can't think of anything I've ever heard of or read - and we have a media that is quite keen to report negatively about Muslims.

But I think you're probably right. The religious increase seems significantly below the population growth from immigration. I'd add that I think there is Christianity as an "immigrant religion" too. There is growth in certain areas - there are more churches in London now than there were in the 1980s and they are largely serving immigrant communities. So I think there'll be some older people dying, we're pretty non-religious as a country (I actually think that's one of the highest rates of "no religion" in the world) so also people who maybe previously said Christian in that Christmas/Easter way no longer feeling that way. That is big part of that decline/rise in "no religion"

But if you're from anywhere else in the world from a religious background, I don't think there's many places in the world better to dump that

[Sheilbh]

There are more sikhs than I expected.

Same - and a record number of Sikhs elected to this Parliament who took a group photo. I think they're all Labour - about 10 Sikh MPs now.

I also thought Hinduism would be higher.

[Valmy]

There are tons of Halal places in Texas yet I don't hear about how Texas has fallen to Islam

And unlike the UK Islam gets tons of special privileges and authority here. Religion has vast powers in the United States. Islamic groups could literally run brainwashing camps complete with fortified compounds where people are forbidden to leave and there would be little the government could or would do about it. Religion!

And I am only saying that because we have dozens of cults who literally do that and they are legally allowed to.

[Barrister]

So I checked and Sikhs are at 2% in Canada.

I thought it would be actually higher, but I guess maybe sikhs (because of the turbans) are just so highly visible.

[Valmy]

I tried one once and felt the intake of sugar was far more dangerous than having a couple of pints down the pub 

Sugar and caffeine among the Turkish community I hang out with from time to time 

Even by American standards it is impressive.

In terms of personal safety the districts with a high proportion of muslims are fine. The places you don't want to go to are a couple of council estates where the more unpleasant sections of the white working class live.

Maybe it is just the impact of Warhammer and the Lord of the Rings movies but whenever I hear cockney accents I cannot help but worry a horde coming to destroy mankind is forming.

[Richard Hakluyt]

As an aside the rate of homicides involving knives is higher in the USA than the UK. 1630 in 2022 compared to the UK's 244, population is 5 times higher so it is about 35% more prevalent.

[Sheilbh]

Labour promises to counter 'snake oil charm of populism' in packed king's speech
Speech to set out 40 bills, from planning and infrastructure to employment rights
Jessica Elgot
Wed 17 Jul 2024 11.51 BST
Last modified on Wed 17 Jul 2024 12.33 BST

Keir Starmer has set out a government agenda that he will claim can counter the "snake oil charm of populism", in a king's speech pledging change to people's lives including rights at work, cheaper energy and secure housing.

Starmer said the "fight for trust is the battle that defines our political era", and said the king's speech – the first under a Labour government for 15 years – would end the performative and divisive politics of the last years and counter the rise of the populist hard right.

The king's speech sets out 40 bills, including many focused on economic growth – such as the planning and infrastructure bill, which will give the government new top-down powers on building key infrastructure faster.

The employment rights bill, which is the start of implementing the "new deal for working people", has been promised to take effect within 100 days. It will ban zero-hours contracts unless an employee requests one, and most "fire and rehire" practices – although unions have complained that some aspects have been watered down after lobbying from business.

It will grant workers rights such as maternity pay and sick pay from day one of their employment, making flexible working the default, and simplify the process of trade union recognition.

Another expected early bill will be the nationalisation of rail companies, designed to bring the franchises back into public ownership as the contracts expire, and a better buses bill to give new franchising rights to local leaders. This will grant them powers over bus routes and timetables, taking these back from private companies.

Several bills are designed to highlight useful political causes, such as the economic responsibility bill enshrining a duty to consult the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) before making major tax changes. This could particularly injure the Conservatives as it was a key criticism of Liz Truss' disastrous mini-budget, which did not include an OBR forecast. The employment bill plans to revoke Tory restrictions placed on trade union organising.

A bill will be introduced to set up Great British Energy (GBE), another election pledge, defining for the first time in law that it will be an energy production company rather than solely an investment vehicle. There had been fears within the sector that Labour would row back on plans for GBE to develop and own assets. The company is expected to be headquartered in Scotland and will "own, manage and operate clean power projects".

An English devolution bill, spearheaded by the deputy leader, Angela Rayner, will implement key aspects of the former prime minister Gordon Brown's review of handing more powers to local decision-making.

It will make devolved powers for local leaders the default, rather than negotiated with central government, including for strategic planning, local transport networks, skills and employment support. Communities will get new "right to buy" powers over empty shops, pubs and community spaces.

New laws will also make some strong-arm public health and antisocial behaviour interventions. These include restrictions on the sale and flavours of vapes, a progressive total ban on tobacco smoking, bans on some junk food advertising, new "respect orders" aimed at persistent antisocial behaviour, and direct powers to tackle the use of noisy off-road bikes on streets.

There will be three key bills prompted by national tragedies. Awaab's law, prompted by the two-year-old who died in December 2020 after prolonged exposure to mould at his family's home, will set out a legally enforceable timeframe for landlords to make homes safe where they contain serious hazards. Martyn's law, named after Martyn Hett who died in the Manchester Arena terror attack, is to improve security of public events.

And the Hillsborough law will put a legal duty of candour on public servants and authorities, which the government said would address the "unacceptable defensive culture prevalent across too much of the public sector".

In his introduction to the speech, Starmer said the agenda would "fix the foundations of this nation for the long term" and that it was only the starting point for what he promised would be a transformation.

"The era of politics as performance and self-interest above service is over," he said. "The challenges we face require determined, patient work and serious solutions, rather than the temptation of the easy answer.

A fair bit I like in here - with some I'm less sure of.

From a legal nerd persepective I will be interested to see this law about "equal pay" rights for minorities. Basically because when Labour announced it all the employment lawyers I know said it was nonsense and just spin.

[Josquius]

A lot of good sounding stuff.
I find it particularly curious they can single out populism as bad in this. It obvious is and I agree, but the kings speech isn't usually so directly political.