Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Sheilbh]

Exactly

He hates the right people and makes money out of anger. Remind you of anyone?

[Tamas]

Exactly

He hates the right people and makes money out of anger. Remind you of anyone?

But what is the damage? That he rallies against participation in politics? Haven't noticed it but then again I am not a closely following fan.

[Sheilbh]

But what is the damage? That he rallies against participation in politics? Haven't noticed it but then again I am not a closely following fan.

I think anti-politics is bad - I think more than a side that would be my worry from Russian or anyone else's disinformation is trying to corrode people's belief in the possibility of political change or the importance of politics. The "plague on both their houses", "they're all the same" etc - a sort of level of corrosive nihilism that anything in politics could ever matter. And the reason I mention Russia is because I think that is a bit part of Putin's Russia - absolute de-politicisation.

So he does hate Tories and Farage. But he also has big goes at Starmer for being so insipid, the left for being too woke and censorious etc. As I say if he was American he'd be a slightly left-y version of Joe Rogan (or, say, the Chapo lot) and the NYT would be nowhere near him.

My view is that I'd likely have a problem with a right-wing equivalent, so I should have an issue with the left-wing version too.

[Tamas]

Fair enough although I'd propose you do your own version of "they are all the same" if you feel you must dislike a far-left provocateur because you dislike far-right ones.

[Barrister]

Yeah - I was also under the impression that the Daily Telegraph broadly thought Mrs Thatcher was a good thing. Perhaps they're re-evaluating.

I think you can be pretty pro-Thatcher, and think closing money-losing coal pits was a good idea, while still acknowledging it had a huge impact on some communities...

[Tamas]

Yeah - I was also under the impression that the Daily Telegraph broadly thought Mrs Thatcher was a good thing. Perhaps they're re-evaluating.

I think you can be pretty pro-Thatcher, and think closing money-losing coal pits was a good idea, while still acknowledging it had a huge impact on some communities...

Yes but then you cannot be The Telegraph.

[Richard Hakluyt]

4000 jobs lost in my home town of 26,000 people and the death of the culture I was brought up in.

Very painful but also inevitable.

[Sheilbh]

Fair enough although I'd propose you do your own version of "they are all the same" if you feel you must dislike a far-left provocateur because you dislike far-right ones.

That's a fair point - I suppose I'd see it less as they're all the same than that the left and right need firewalls and if I want the right to criticise my opponent getting rid of theirs, I can't be gleefully tearing down the one on my side.

I'm not a "no enemies to the left/right" sort of person - I think those lines are often the ones that distinguish a sort of democratic from an undemocratic politics. But you're right. I have very little tolerance on the left for people who want to work with the revolutionary/non-parliamentary left or are terrorist-curious, at the same time I think the right should have very little tolerance for fascists or Putin fans. That is leveling the two in a way.

[Sheilbh]

4000 jobs lost in my home town of 26,000 people and the death of the culture I was brought up in.

Very painful but also inevitable.

I agree inevitable and looking at it from a post-Kyoto perspective, essential. The big reason the UK has the best record in the G7 on net zero is the decline of coal.

Of course I'm not sure it was inevitable in the way it was done or the sheer shock of the transition. I remember seeing some stats that basically there is almost nowhere in the rest of the West that had a de-industrialising shock like parts of the UK under Thatcher - the nearest comparisons are from the former Eastern bloc going through shock therapy. But, broadly, many of those areas have recovered more strongly.

[HVC]

It came relatively recently after a national coal strike, right? If so i Guess the public mood was in the right place. 

[Richard Hakluyt]

The UK economy was very old fashioned back in 1950. Lots of low productivity textile mills, coal mines, shipyard etc etc

... and relatively high labour costs too.

I'm always been quite impressed by the progress we made in the period 1985 to 2008. The tories have derailed that since 2010,which I find unforgivable.

[Jacob]

I think anti-politics is bad - I think more than a side that would be my worry from Russian or anyone else's disinformation is trying to corrode people's belief in the possibility of political change or the importance of politics. The "plague on both their houses", "they're all the same" etc - a sort of level of corrosive nihilism that anything in politics could ever matter. And the reason I mention Russia is because I think that is a bit part of Putin's Russia - absolute de-politicisation.

So he does hate Tories and Farage. But he also has big goes at Starmer for being so insipid, the left for being too woke and censorious etc. As I say if he was American he'd be a slightly left-y version of Joe Rogan (or, say, the Chapo lot) and the NYT would be nowhere near him.

My view is that I'd likely have a problem with a right-wing equivalent, so I should have an issue with the left-wing version too.

100% agreement

[Josquius]

Pye is alright. I see him as quite different to the nutty right anti politics batch in that he presents a jaded centrist view on reality rather than making shit up about the left.
It's hard to disagree with many of his points. He does speak truth in an engaging manner.
I'm not a huge fan and haven't followed everything he's ever done, maybe there's some lunacy out there I've missed. Please do point it out if so.

As to RT- working there was damming only in the sense working for any dodgy regime is, well, dodgy. Like working for Newcastle Utd (though yeah, on a higher level of bad)
Not everything on RT was necessarily wrong. They did historically buy up some pretty respectable good faith journalism and docs to mix in with their propeganda and give it plausible cover.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Not that it is likely that people were conned by the Telegraph shroud waving but the number of private pupils continues to rise https://www.theguardian.com/education/article/2024/jun/15/number-of-private-school-pupils-rises-despite-claims-families-priced-out-by-labours-vat-plan

[Sheilbh]

First MRP since Farage announced he was running - and has Reform on 7 seats (mainly East Coast and East Mids). But looking at the map really struck by the Lib Dems in the South-West. Worth noting these pollsters are legit but this was commissioned by a tactical voting campaign group:
https://www.survation.com/mrp-update-first-mrp-since-farages-return/

Headline is:

Survation.
@Survation
NEW: First MRP Since Farage's return.

Labour on course for 262 seat majority.

LAB 456
CON 72
LD 56
SNP 37
RFM 7
PC 2
GRN 1

42,269 interviews conducted online and on the phone
Fwk 31 May - 13 June

Also found this very striking of what's happened to the 2019 Tory vote - I'd expect the don't knows to vote Tory (because I feel like if you're still a "don't know" at this point you're probably pretty loyally Tory):