Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Tamas]

And after the compulsory initial service we could monitor them, and perhaps grade them, to ensure they are model citizens.  And those who need more encouragement can be compelled to perform further service.

Failure to appropriately conform after that will of course require more intervention.

But I am sure it will all work out.  It's all in the name of a more civil society after all.

If you are not careful you'll get elected British Prime Minister.

[Legbiter]

Simon Jenkins approves of the conscription plan https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/28/national-service-young-people-beneficial-military

...just saying 

Military conscription to defend the nation, sure. Unpaid Boomer ass wipers/Doordash service, hell no. 

[Sheilbh]

Yeah, I don't see it. It feels like it masquerades as a solution to issues of social cohesion. A band-aid/plaster at best than something that will really drive change.

[...]

And I don't see how it would actually help with that. Do people sentenced to community service typically turn around to value those experiences? I think asking people to socialise more is definitely better done with a carrot than a stick.

It could be and it might fail. As I say this is a back of a fag packet idea and the actual commitment is appointing a Royal Commission.

I think the ideas as thought about by Lammy and the Resolution Foundation are worth looking at. I don't have a principled opposition to it. It'd be interesting to hear alternatives. 

I think there are real issues on those three fronts of social cohesion, military recruitment and decline of the voluntary sector (which I think may be linked - with the last two as consequences of the first). I'm very open minded and don't really have a solution so whatever alternatives there I'd be interested to hear. (And at the back of my mind I think there is a real risk to European security that will require something that looks more like standard European Cold War era policy - which is partly why countries are looking at the return of national service with far more a military focus than this but we'd have the database set up...)

And I don't think community service which is intended to punish is the same. In a future I could see that perhaps community service should resemble this more (clear, well-designed pathways etc).

Or it could drive people away before they are locked in by their commitment.

Yeah - I think that's also a good thing

If you are not careful you'll get elected British Prime Minister.

No one has ever lost any votes underestimating the authoritarianism of the British public As I keep mentioning - there are still 30% of people who want lockdown re-imposed

Incidentally any idea how I could volunteer?
I've 2 days a year from work to use but there's nothing immediately obvious.
With the weather being decent a day doing something outdoorsy could be nice.

Have a look at the NCVO - most councils also run a portal to find this sort of thing:
https://www.ncvo.org.uk/get-involved/volunteering/volunteering-opportunities/

(Jealous of the weather - it's been horrendous here )

[Jacob]

Denmark has a system like that and it's very accepted, but the evolution of it is different:

First of all we still have a draft, which has been in place since 1849. Over the years additional options have been given to draftees to fulfill their obligations: in the emergency services, doing aid work in 3rd world countries, and civil work (often in old age homes etc). But the framing has always been "for conscientious objectors and others who feel unsuited to the military."

As well the Danish state is pretty decent at supporting people throughout their lives, so contributing is seen as fairly reasonable.

And, of course, this has been the way of things since forever basically, so there's no sense of old people imposing a new burden on young people - and the UK debate illustrates the significance of that perception.

In the abstract the policy may be sound - personally I think there's some merit to the idea - but it needs solid and fair implementation details, good communication, and stakeholder buy-in.... and I don't think we're seeing that.

[Tamas]

I think there are real issues on those three fronts of social cohesion, military recruitment and decline of the voluntary sector (which I think may be linked - with the last two as consequences of the first).

Again, surely the UK isn't in such a bad situation that forced labour is the morally and practically best answer to those challenges?

[Sheilbh]

And, of course, this has been the way of things since forever basically, so there's no sense of old people imposing a new burden on young people - and the UK debate illustrates the significance of that perception.

In the abstract the policy may be sound - personally I think there's some merit to the idea - but it needs solid and fair implementation details, good communication, and stakeholder buy-in.... and I don't think we're seeing that.

Totally agree - as I say, I wouldn't be surprised if it's a second term Labour policy.

And I'm not opposed in principle to it. As I say other countries that had national service longer than we did are either bringing it back or starting to look at it again - France, Germany, Sweden. I think the reasons for that will still exist and be relevant for Britain in the next 4 years.

This proposal specifically is very much "just say any old shit" stage of a government trying to win an election (although appointing a Royal Commission would probably be a good starting point)

[Sheilbh]

By the by, no manifesto launches yet and one debate so far announced. Obviously things could change - and it is a long campaign.

But so far pretty stable (averaging polls from all the pollsters):

[Tamas]

Russia still has national service.

[Sheilbh]

Russia still has national service.

Yes.

But despite the fears expressed in this thread. I think that, on balance, British national service would be more likely to resemble the national service we previously had (until the sixties), or what's in place in the Nordic countries, being reintroduced in France and discussed in Germany than, say, Russia, Nazi Germany, slavery or Communist China.

Also Russia has 24/7 manufacturing of material to support its war effort. I'm not sure that something is bad just because it also happens to exist in Russia.

[crazy canuck]

And after the compulsory initial service we could monitor them, and perhaps grade them, to ensure they are model citizens.  And those who need more encouragement can be compelled to perform further service.

Failure to appropriately conform after that will of course require more intervention.

But I am sure it will all work out.  It's all in the name of a more civil society after all.

If you are not careful you'll get elected British Prime Minister.

 

[Barrister]

I honestly think the odds of Britain implementing national service is so incredibly unlikely it's probably not worth discussing.  First of course being that the odds of a Conservative victory (either majority or minority) are projected at under 1%.  But even if they do, it's almost certain to be fairly unstable, they have the lengthy Royal Commission to go through (Commissions are usually proposed as a way to duck an issue), then even at the end of the day it's bound to be pretty expensive.

[Tamas]

Russia still has national service.

Yes.

But despite the fears expressed in this thread. I think that, on balance, British national service would be more likely to resemble the national service we previously had (until the sixties), or what's in place in the Nordic countries, being reintroduced in France and discussed in Germany than, say, Russia, Nazi Germany, slavery or Communist China.

Also Russia has 24/7 manufacturing of material to support its war effort. I'm not sure that something is bad just because it also happens to exist in Russia.

My main point with that was that the universal societal benefits you seem to attribute to forced military or community service simply do not exist. They have bewnmade up by people looking to make others miserable.

[garbon]

Starmer says Abbott can stand.

[Valmy]

My main point with that was that the universal societal benefits you seem to attribute to forced military or community service simply do not exist. They have bewnmade up by people looking to make others miserable.

Yeah the only point to national service is if you need a ton of reservists in case of a likely large land war. Doing it for some other reason seems misguided to me.

[Sheilbh]

My main point with that was that the universal societal benefits you seem to attribute to forced military or community service simply do not exist. They have bewnmade up by people looking to make others miserable.

As I say I'm not wed to it - I'm open to it as an idea and learning from other countries' experiences like the Nordics and France where clearly some people benefit. I don't know if it'll lead to those benefits (no benefits are universal - there are always losers), I think it's worth considering and don't have a principled objection to it.

But as with any actual policy I think the results depend on what your goal is and how you implement it. On that front Russia may be sub-optimal.

Starmer says Abbott can stand.

Probably the right decision.