Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Sheilbh]

If someone forced you to be a grunt at a law firm, fetching coffee, shredding paper for hours on hours on your weekend, etc would you have chosen law as your profession? Or would you think lawyers are dicks and chosen another profession? How about your colleagues? How many would have opted out on stubbornness alone

How do you think lawyers are trained?

And these unwilling unenthusiastic "volunteers" are not going to be treated like bright eyed interns at their place of servitude. A one off kid eagerly joining a charity or workplace is going to be treated way different then an army of forced "volunteers". They'll be a commodity. I doubt they'll get any meaningful real world experience. A lot of busy work is more likely. How you going to find enough meaningful learning experiences with the number of kids foisted into the system?

That's why I think the schemes would need to be well designed - and more mandatory with less choice - to ensure there's a good balance of young people getting useful experiences and the organisations getting a benefit.

Of course there'll be people who who don't like it - though I still struggle with seeing one weekend a month for one year as a heinous abuse of state compulsion - but there always are. That's as true of the education system those people will have just left - doesn't mean there's not value in making them do it anyway.

[HVC]

Hell, how many real companies would want these kids? Managing volunteers/interns is resource intensive when the kids actually want to be there, let alone corralling kids that don't want to be there

You'll get places that want cheap (read free) labour or places that can't get other volunteers (tamas' toilet cleaners).

[HVC]

If someone forced you to be a grunt at a law firm, fetching coffee, shredding paper for hours on hours on your weekend, etc would you have chosen law as your profession? Or would you think lawyers are dicks and chosen another profession? How about your colleagues? How many would have opted out on stubbornness alone

How do you think lawyers are trained?

But you chose to articulate. No one dragged your grumpy tired ass out of bed Saturday morning and put you to work in the dungeon of the local law firm . That's the different between legitimate volunteering and forced volunteering. The drive and want.

And these unwilling unenthusiastic "volunteers" are not going to be treated like bright eyed interns at their place of servitude. A one off kid eagerly joining a charity or workplace is going to be treated way different then an army of forced "volunteers". They'll be a commodity. I doubt they'll get any meaningful real world experience. A lot of busy work is more likely. How you going to find enough meaningful learning experiences with the number of kids foisted into the system?

That's why I think the schemes would need to be well designed - and more mandatory with less choice - to ensure there's a good balance of young people getting useful experiences and the organisations getting a benefit.

Of course there'll be people who who don't like it - though I still struggle with seeing one weekend a month for one year as a heinous abuse of state compulsion - but there always are. That's as true of the education system those people will have just left - doesn't mean there's not value in making them do it anyway.

And the government is very good at that, aren't they. How's your train track upgrade coming along? And that's one system, not several hundred thousand kids

*edit*

According to the 2020 estimate (published in June 2021) there are 717,252 people aged 18 years old in England and Wales: 369,604 men and 347,648 women.

Link

Good luck

[Sheilbh]

Hell, how many real companies would want these kids? Managing volunteers/interns is resource intensive when the kids actually want to be there, let alone corralling kids that don't want to be there

You'll get places that want cheap (read free) labour or places that can't get other volunteers (tamas' toilet cleaners).

It wouldn't be companies at all

The scheme is up to 30k military (in logistics, procurement, IT etc) or 25 days with a charity (who by definition tend to rely on free labour in one way or another). The only sort of company thing is that there could be volunteering in public service - so NHS, social care, education etc.

There is no argument less likely to convince me than a libertarian-ish one, but I also think there's potential for real social good there and for at least some individuals possibly real benefits.

And the government is very good at that, aren't they. How's your train track upgrade coming along? And that's one system, not several hundred thousand kids

So you're saying it could help build state capacity too?

But you chose to articulate. No one dragged your grumpy tired ass out of bed Saturday morning and put you to work in the dungeon of the local law firm . That's the different between legitimate volunteering and forced volunteering. The drive and want.

Yeah they're nothing like each other. Although I really wouldn't describe my life choices as volunteering - economically (and lifestyle ) coerced more like It's a different set of forces driving me here.

But also fundamentally I don't see a year (for people who actively apply for that), or 25 days in he course of a year as anything near equivalent to career choices (especially something like law which locks you in in various ways).

[Richard Hakluyt]

Simon Jenkins approves of the conscription plan https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/28/national-service-young-people-beneficial-military

...just saying 

[garbon]

Sorry Sheilbh but the non military side sounds like silly make work, on the military side if it'd be people interested in joining, why not just sign up? Why the taster course?

[Josquius]

They've jumped ahead a few steps, skipping over all the necessary stuff in between here and there, to get to the bit that wins stodgy boomer support.

I'd imagine if a system was set up to easily volunteer a weekend a month, get something useful on the cv, engage with the community, etc... You'd get a fair few people signing up without being forced. Tying it to conscription and forced youth labour could actually hurt the take up.

[garbon]

They've jumped ahead a few steps, skipping over all the necessary stuff in between here and there, to get to the bit that wins stodgy boomer support.

I'd imagine if a system was set up to easily volunteer a weekend a month, get something useful on the cv, engage with the community, etc... You'd get a fair few people signing up without being forced. Tying it to conscription and forced youth labour could actually hurt the take up.

Yes, that's one of the big credits to New York Cares. That non-profit makes it really easy to so a variety of volunteer activities across the city.

[Tamas]

Simon Jenkins approves of the conscription plan https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/28/national-service-young-people-beneficial-military

...just saying 

Checkmate

[Sheilbh]

Simon Jenkins approves of the conscription plan https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/28/national-service-young-people-beneficial-military

...just saying 

Checkmate

oh no

Stopped clocks and all that

Sorry Sheilbh but the non military side sounds like silly make work, on the military side if it'd be people interested in joining, why not just sign up? Why the taster course?

Precisely because you think it's a social good not just to have people volunteering for charities (who are the normal type of people who already volunteer for charities - which is a falling group). To introduce something new and also to make people mix in a physical real social environment with people they wouldn't otherwise. As I say I think it could be really valuable on the inter-generational side though obviously needs careful design on thought.

Obviously should say I actually quite like modern Rwanda's umuganda mandatory community service for all As I say I get Languish leans libertarian but my attitude on this sort of stuff is very communitarian.

Why not on the taster course? We have a recruitment crisis - even aside from the national service element - I think a one year non-combat commitment for school-leavers to come and see what life is like in the military could be a really useful recruitment tool.

People worry about online, atomisation, decline of shared civil society - I think any attempt to address will require compulsion because the people who'll volunteer are probably not the people who are impacted. There's also issues with military recruitment but also just joining in/volunteering in the charitable sector. As I say I get that lots of people here are very much on the libertarian side of that axis, but it also feels a bit like "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas".

[Sheilbh]

On parachuting candidates, Torsten Bell now picked as candidate for Swansea West. As far as I know he's got no connection to Wales.

He was in the Treasury as a special advisor to Alistair Darling, then Ed Miliband's head of policy (which I feel should be a red flag) before running the Resolution Foundation thinktank. He is very smart and very interesting.

But I think this is to an extent the shape of Starmer's parliamentary Labour Party: a lot of local councillors with a good record of following the whip and about 100 former SpAds, party apparatchiks and other loyalists. Not sure it'll necessarily make for good government - and I think the competing briefings etc that's already coming out from Starmer's team is a bit of a worrying sign.

[garbon]

Precisely because you think it's a social good not just to have people volunteering for charities (who are the normal type of people who already volunteer for charities - which is a falling group). To introduce something new and also to make people mix in a physical real social environment with people they wouldn't otherwise. As I say I think it could be really valuable on the inter-generational side though obviously needs careful design on thought.

Yeah, I don't see it. It feels like it masquerades as a solution to issues of social cohesion. A band-aid/plaster at best than something that will really drive change.

Why not on the taster course? We have a recruitment crisis - even aside from the national service element - I think a one year non-combat commitment for school-leavers to come and see what life is like in the military could be a really useful recruitment tool.

Or it could drive people away before they are locked in by their commitment.

People worry about online, atomisation, decline of shared civil society - I think any attempt to address will require compulsion because the people who'll volunteer are probably not the people who are impacted. There's also issues with military recruitment but also just joining in/volunteering in the charitable sector. As I say I get that lots of people here are very much on the libertarian side of that axis, but it also feels a bit like "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas".

And I don't see how it would actually help with that. Do people sentenced to community service typically turn around to value those experiences? I think asking people to socialise more is definitely better done with a carrot than a stick.

[crazy canuck]

And after the compulsory initial service we could monitor them, and perhaps grade them, to ensure they are model citizens.  And those who need more encouragement can be compelled to perform further service.

Failure to appropriately conform after that will of course require more intervention.

But I am sure it will all work out.  It's all in the name of a more civil society after all.

[Josquius]

Incidentally any idea how I could volunteer?
I've 2 days a year from work to use but there's nothing immediately obvious.
With the weather being decent a day doing something outdoorsy could be nice.

[Legbiter]

Incidentally any idea how I could volunteer?
I've 2 days a year from work to use but there's nothing immediately obvious.
With the weather being decent a day doing something outdoorsy could be nice.

The easiest but still very impactful would be to donate blood. Donate 2-3 times a year and you'll have literally saved several lives in the process.