Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Tamas]

I totally believe some absolute wastes have been attacking Labour MPs over Gaza.
But it is really curious this is now considered a massive concern that is sending ripples all over, when the ongoing far right threat that has been in place for years and resulted in actual death, is largely just ignored and rarely spoken about.
I get how the anti-semites and fellow travellers are really getting inflamed. If you were inclined to look for "Jewish conspiracies" that'd be the obvious thing to blame for the double standards.

Ok I do not understand this. The "pro-Gaza" movement has managed to make far greater ripples in public life to make themselves heard than the far-right even though the latter may be a more sinister danger to the workings of the British state, and because of this the "pro-Gaza" crowd rightfully feels upset?

[Josquius]

I totally believe some absolute wastes have been attacking Labour MPs over Gaza.
But it is really curious this is now considered a massive concern that is sending ripples all over, when the ongoing far right threat that has been in place for years and resulted in actual death, is largely just ignored and rarely spoken about.
I get how the anti-semites and fellow travellers are really getting inflamed. If you were inclined to look for "Jewish conspiracies" that'd be the obvious thing to blame for the double standards.

Ok I do not understand this. The "pro-Gaza" movement has managed to make far greater ripples in public life to make themselves heard than the far-right even though the latter may be a more sinister danger to the workings of the British state, and because of this the "pro-Gaza" crowd rightfully feels upset?

Ish.
The dodgy side of the pro-Gaza movement has attracted massive amounts of media and parliamentary attention.

The far right on the other hand are much bigger and more dangerous, and actually successfully got the political decisions they wanted thanks in some part to their tactics, they've actually killed people... but haven't gotten the same reaction from parliament.

There's plenty of explanations that don't involve nutty racist conspiracies. But for those who are already onboard with this brand of lunacy everything would tie together very naturally.

[garbon]

Why are we discussing let alone caring what those who believe 'nutty racist conspiracies' think?

[Josquius]

Why are we discussing let alone caring what those who believe 'nutty racist conspiracies' think?

We don't want people to die and we want politics to be possible without threats?

[Tamas]

Why are we discussing let alone caring what those who believe 'nutty racist conspiracies' think?

We don't want people to die and we want politics to be possible without threats?

If there's anything we have learned the past 10 years or so is that catering to lunatics just makes them want more.


More to the point, can you point me toward a 100k+ regular weekly far-right protest? I don't think you can. So it is a far bigger and public phenomenon that attracts far more attention, there's nothing sinister about it.

And if those people are so upset about far-right scheming kept in the dark then they can do mass protests about those issues as well. But I suspect the topic of far-right influence in Britain won't compel nearly as many people to go to the street as the whole Jews oppressing Muslims thing.

[Josquius]

Why are we discussing let alone caring what those who believe 'nutty racist conspiracies' think?

We don't want people to die and we want politics to be possible without threats?

If there's anything we have learned the past 10 years or so is that catering to lunatics just makes them want more.


More to the point, can you point me toward a 100k+ regular weekly far-right protest? I don't think you can. So it is a far bigger and public phenomenon that attracts far more attention, there's nothing sinister about it.

And if those people are so upset about far-right scheming kept in the dark then they can do mass protests about those issues as well. But I suspect the topic of far-right influence in Britain won't compel nearly as many people to go to the street as the whole Jews oppressing Muslims thing.

How is it catering to lunatics to seek to understand their thinking?
Do detectives cater to murderers?

[Tamas]

Why are we discussing let alone caring what those who believe 'nutty racist conspiracies' think?

We don't want people to die and we want politics to be possible without threats?

If there's anything we have learned the past 10 years or so is that catering to lunatics just makes them want more.


More to the point, can you point me toward a 100k+ regular weekly far-right protest? I don't think you can. So it is a far bigger and public phenomenon that attracts far more attention, there's nothing sinister about it.

And if those people are so upset about far-right scheming kept in the dark then they can do mass protests about those issues as well. But I suspect the topic of far-right influence in Britain won't compel nearly as many people to go to the street as the whole Jews oppressing Muslims thing.

How is it catering to lunatics to seek to understand their thinking?
Do detectives cater to murderers?

I understand their thinking. They have various frustrations in their lives to which they need an outlet and a scapegoat. For some that's beating up fans of the opposing football team. For others its Muslims, Jews, or other denominations.

[garbon]

Why are we discussing let alone caring what those who believe 'nutty racist conspiracies' think?

We don't want people to die and we want politics to be possible without threats?

But I don't see how that is relevant. It only seems like it is a baton to suggest Labour MPs were being disingenuous when they said they were afraid and/or they are biased against Muslims.

[Gups]

I haven't seen any evidence to support Tamas's claim that there has been any influence on Parliament though.

You mean besides yesterday's, right?

What was the influence of threats on yesterday's proceedings in Parliament? I must be missing something.

[Gups]

Sorry, you're talking about the Labour MPs who approached the speaker. Gotcha.

[Josquius]

I understand their thinking. They have various frustrations in their lives to which they need an outlet and a scapegoat. For some that's beating up fans of the opposing football team. For others its Muslims, Jews, or other denominations.

Yes. That's one layer.
But what then pushes them to make that big step from shouting at the TV about the Jews towards threatening MPs for not following their line exactly on Israel?

But I don't see how that is relevant. It only seems like it is a baton to suggest Labour MPs were being disingenuous when they said they were afraid and/or they are biased against Muslims.

This bias against Muslims could well be a fact. It need not be a conscious bias or anything disingenuous.
If a bunch of shouty and possibly violent brown people are causing this concern and response, where at least equally shouty and violent white people didn't, then that's curious and well worth looking at. It marks there's a problem *somewhere*.

Beyond concerns of doing the right thing in the longer term, in the minds of the conspiracy nuts it shows MPs are all a bunch of terrible racists. Which is really going to worsen things.

I'm just hopeful the reaction to this leads to widescale efforts to tackle toxic politics and extremists of every stripe rather than just focussing on minorities and the left.

[garbon]

I understand their thinking. They have various frustrations in their lives to which they need an outlet and a scapegoat. For some that's beating up fans of the opposing football team. For others its Muslims, Jews, or other denominations.

Yes. That's one layer.
But what then pushes them to make that big step from shouting at the TV about the Jews towards threatening MPs for not following their line exactly on Israel?

But I don't see how that is relevant. It only seems like it is a baton to suggest Labour MPs were being disingenuous when they said they were afraid and/or they are biased against Muslims.

This bias against Muslims could well be a fact. It need not be a conscious bias or anything disingenuous.
If a bunch of shouty and possibly violent brown people are causing this concern and response, where at least equally shouty and violent white people didn't, then that's curious and well worth looking at. It marks there's a problem *somewhere*.

Beyond concerns of doing the right thing in the longer term, in the minds of the conspiracy nuts it shows MPs are all a bunch of terrible racists. Which is really going to worsen things.

I'm just hopeful the reaction to this leads to widescale efforts to tackle toxic politics and extremists of every stripe rather than just focussing on minorities and the left.

Can you be more concrete on what you would like to see? At the moment what you've raised seems like whataboutism that leads to no change at all. And I know that's not what you are intending.

[Josquius]

Can you be more concrete on what you would like to see? At the moment what you've raised seems like whataboutism that leads to no change at all. And I know that's not what you are intending.

I have no idea of a simple answer. I don't think anyone knows the definitive practical way to tackle the rise in polarisation and extremism around our politics.
There's just the big picture stuff around tackling misinformation, general better education and economic opportunities, and so on. 
Which I suppose is an area where practical action can be taken. More Prevent work in schools (not necessarily by them, more pre-Prevent)- tackling anti-semitic Islamophobic crap in areas with large Muslim populations and the white far right's nonsense in most of the country.
This won't really help in the short term though. How to tackle dickheads once they're out of the oven is tricky.

And of course the white far right getting properly treat as the threat they are of course. That'd be great.  Less whatabout and more "Yes and while you're at it..."

[garbon]

Yeah, I would agree all of that would be great but as you say that's more long term and as a result cold comfort to people dealing with issues now.

What do you think should be done in short term? It feels like taking claims seriously would be a first step and this recent experience shows we aren't even doing that minimum.

[The Brain]

What's the experience in other government sectors? Do senior police chiefs adjust their professional activities because of threats from criminals?