Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Richard Hakluyt]

I don't understand the problem, Europhobic people elect Europhobes to go to the European parliament, I don't agree with them but their behaviour is rational.

[Valmy]

I don't understand the problem, Europhobic people elect Europhobes to go to the European parliament, I don't agree with them but their behaviour is rational.

It isn't a problem. Just seems insane to legitimize an institution you hate by participating in it.

[Sheilbh]

But not participating never works as a rule - possible exception is Sinn Fein in 1918.

[Valmy]

But not participating never works as a rule - possible exception is Sinn Fein in 1918.

That was actually exactly what I was thinking of

But Sinn Fein still does this no? What do you think about that? Crazy? Or Rational?

[Sheilbh]

Sinn Fein does it. In terms of their history and ideology of continuity republicanism I think it makes sense. 1918 worked because they had a clean sweep so it was political Ireland unilaterally absenting itself from the Commons.

In terms of conventional movements I think you're better off participating, even as a spoiler eg. SNP, other separatists, etc.

[Valmy]

SNP has a pretty clean sweep doesn't it? But I don't get the feeling the SNP is as ferociously nationalist as Sinn Fein.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Plus Europhobic MEPs get lots of pay, free claret and a chance to share right-wing ideas with foreign Europhobes. It is a lot more multifaceted than Ireland leaving the UK.

[Valmy]

Plus Europhobic MEPs get lots of pay, free claret and a chance to share right-wing ideas with foreign Europhobes. It is a lot more multifaceted than Ireland leaving the UK.

But Europhobes have national elections and can elect national parliamentarians who can advance their anti-EU cause. They don't need to elect MEPs, in fact Euroskeptic politicians are wasted as MEPs. They could easily abstain. For the Irish, on the other hand, that was their ONLY representation.

[Zanza]

UKIP barely ever wins anything in the British first-past-the-post system, but they can easily get seats in the European Parliament's proportional representation. That's why you find them there, but not in the House of Commons (with one or two exceptions).

[Valmy]

UKIP barely ever wins anything in the British first-past-the-post system, but they can easily get seats in the European Parliament's proportional representation. That's why you find them there, but not in the House of Commons (with one or two exceptions).

So the UKIP owes its existence and relevance to the structures of the EU? That's gratitude for you.

[Richard Hakluyt]

I don't know about the other EU countries, but the system for electing MEPs is different to the one we use for Westminster. Instead of first past the post there is a multi-member constituency with proportional representation system. So UKIP couldn't get elected nationally but could get into the European parliament. Even the BNP managed a couple of MEPS once.

[Sheilbh]

SNP has a pretty clean sweep doesn't it? But I don't get the feeling the SNP is as ferociously nationalist as Sinn Fein.

Yeah, but Sinn Fein's view was that the declaration of independence in the Easter Rising meant the legitimate Government of Ireland was Dail Eirrean. I believe modern Sinn Fein take the same view and historically at least disputed the legitimavy of any Dail following the Free State Treaty. Of course they're now an aspiring party of government in the Republic so that position may be more nuanced.

The SNP and, most separatist parties, have nothing quite so strong.

[Gups]

Labour never depose their leaders. Only way to remove them is to find an alternative candidate and beat them (though there is a difference of opinion among lawyers over whether or not Corbyn is automatically on the ballot).

Interesting to see the responses of the unions as this clearly isn't a 'Blairite' coup. Apparently Labour MPs are now deciding between Angela Eagle and Tom Watson as a unity candidate to nominate.

"Blairite" is a meaningless term now. It's applied by the Corbynites in much the same way that "Trotskyist" was applied to any real or perceived opponent of Stalin.

[Richard Hakluyt]

That £3 supporter thing and the election rules enabled Labour to be subverted by communists and their fellow travellers.

[Gups]

That £3 supporter thing and the election rules enabled Labour to be subverted by communists and their fellow travellers.

It made no difference. Corbyn won a big majority amongst "proper" members as well.