Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Tamas]

One of the depressing precedents that have recently been set is that referenda on fundamental changes only require 50%+1 to pass. The Scots would be advised to ask for a referendum where, say, 60% in favour is required for change. At least then the new country could start the difficult process of unravelling a 300-year-old union with some sense of unity and legitimacy.

Yes, but I am sure they won't.


This whole bloody country is unravelling.

But I guess an independent England with the status of Puerto Rico, bordering the EU on the Scottish border won't be too bad. I mean, it will still have London.

[Tamas]

Johnson met the Tory rebels and in the summary of reactions a journalist mentioned this:

[on the government's] side another in the room said it's clear rebels have consulted with eu lawyers

This is a pretty terrible accusation, is it not? I guess the lightest interpretation is that it was said in relation to the rebels calling BS on the "ongoing negotiations"  stuff from Boris, one of his advisors thinking this bluff was so hard to call the rebels HAD to have inside intel... Otherwise, it is accusing them with treason, almost.

[Josquius]

Johnson met the Tory rebels and in the summary of reactions a journalist mentioned this:

[on the government's] side another in the room said it's clear rebels have consulted with eu lawyers

This is a pretty terrible accusation, is it not? I guess the lightest interpretation is that it was said in relation to the rebels calling BS on the "ongoing negotiations"  stuff from Boris, one of his advisors thinking this bluff was so hard to call the rebels HAD to have inside intel... Otherwise, it is accusing them with treason, almost.

Clearly playing to the quitlings and their black and white world view.

If MPs had talked to EU lawyers about a matter of  EU law...then thats just called doing your job properly.

[Zanza]

Who are these EU lawyers? The Advocates General of the European Court of Justice? I cannot imagine that they are available to discuss with British MPs on questions of British constitutional matters or Erskine May. Nor are they probably particularly knowledgable about this.

[Zanza]

Just to add some foreign perspective of this whole theatre: Die Zeit, a high reputation German weekly, has an article titled "Great Britain: A Failed State" which is a general criticism of the entire political class in Britain. 

[Tamas]

BTW you guys need to stop calling the Withdrawal Agreement a hard-brexit option.

It was a nominally temporary soft-Brexit setup MINUS freedom of movement.

It was probably the best compromise between the myriad of different views, but compromise is not something British politicians do anymore, apparently.

[Josquius]

BTW you guys need to stop calling the Withdrawal Agreement a hard-brexit option.

It was a nominally temporary soft-Brexit setup MINUS freedom of movement.

It was probably the best compromise between the myriad of different views, but compromise is not something British politicians do anymore, apparently.

It was hard brexit.
Soft brexit would have been to accept one of the EU's offers of getting a Norway or Switzerland style situation.
If it had been a deal that was going to stand forever then it could be argued it was fairly soft, but as it was meant to be just a transitional state towards something harder...

[Agelastus]

Most of ours were soft, perhaps with the exception of Agelastus.

I would remind you that I said the votes a few month's ago for May's deal called for a Curzon moment; unfortunately, we lack a Curzon these days.

Curzon line in the UK? North of the line stays (somewhat close but) in the EU, south hard exit from the EU? 

Parliament Act 1911 - Curzon started off implacably opposed to it and (apparently) is credited with being the origin of the "Ditcher"* term for die-hard opponents. He realised that the Liberals, with the King on their side, had the upper hand so in the end, while still hating it, he was the one who led the Tories who voted for the bill in the House of Lords to get it through against the "Ditcher" opposition. Thus making sure the king did not have to create hundreds of Liberal peers.

Or, at least, that's what I have read in the past offline - it's not in his Wiki article that he voted it through, for example.

*"Die in the last ditch" if I recall correctly.

[Tamas]

BTW you guys need to stop calling the Withdrawal Agreement a hard-brexit option.

It was a nominally temporary soft-Brexit setup MINUS freedom of movement.

It was probably the best compromise between the myriad of different views, but compromise is not something British politicians do anymore, apparently.

It was hard brexit.
Soft brexit would have been to accept one of the EU's offers of getting a Norway or Switzerland style situation.
If it had been a deal that was going to stand forever then it could be argued it was fairly soft, but as it was meant to be just a transitional state towards something harder...

It was not the final trade deal. It was the Withdrawal Agreement that would be in place until a final trade deal would have been reached. There was nothing stopping anybody from signing a Norway-style deal afterwards. Even re-joining the bloody European Union could have been done seamlessly with it.

[Tamas]

We have to face it: it seemed likely even then, but has been painfully confirmed: the WA was the best chance the country had to go through this shit with minimal disruption. It has been squandered by MPs because they all had their specific little ideas of an ideal end situation, and were not willing to compromise that to any degree.

[Tamas]

US VP Mike Pence had uncomfortable message for Varadkar: "As Brexit deadline approaches -we urge Ireland and EU as well to negotiate in good faith with Prime minister Boris Johnson and work to reach an agreement that respects UK sovereignty + minimises disruption to commerce"

Johnson is getting helpful help from the other blond pathological liar's crew.

[Valmy]

US VP Mike Pence had uncomfortable message for Varadkar: "As Brexit deadline approaches -we urge Ireland and EU as well to negotiate in good faith with Prime minister Boris Johnson and work to reach an agreement that respects UK sovereignty + minimises disruption to commerce"

Johnson is getting helpful help from the other blond pathological liar's crew.

Evil Ireland is always dealing in bad faith with the UK.

[Tamas]

US VP Mike Pence had uncomfortable message for Varadkar: "As Brexit deadline approaches -we urge Ireland and EU as well to negotiate in good faith with Prime minister Boris Johnson and work to reach an agreement that respects UK sovereignty + minimises disruption to commerce"

Johnson is getting helpful help from the other blond pathological liar's crew.

Evil Ireland is always dealing in bad faith with the UK.

Not to mention the EU itself, which has been maliciously limiting the granting of every British wish to the extent of not damaging EU members' interests. Quite appalling.

[Legbiter]

The government just lost it's 1 man majority. He joined RH in the Lib Dems. 

[Valmy]

The government just lost it's 1 man majority. He joined RH in the Lib Dems. 

Glorious. All power to the Lib Dems!