Many killed in Ankara bomb blast

[alfred russel]

You know you have put way to many words here.  The word "Islamist" is enough, because let's be honest.  That's the problem we have isn't it?  Would anyone really give a shit if it was just corruption?

Well, you started with a comparison of him to Orban. I think there has been as much if not more discussion of Orban on this forum than there has been of erdogan, and I don't think Orban is an islamist.

[DGuller]

You know you have put way to many words here.  The word "Islamist" is enough, because let's be honest.  That's the problem we have isn't it?  Would anyone really give a shit if it was just corruption?

Well, you started with a comparison of him to Orban. I think there has been as much if not more discussion of Orban on this forum than there has been of erdogan, and I don't think Orban is an islamist.

I think we've discussed each of that Putinist trio aplenty.  Each of those fascists appeals to different things in order to destroy the system of checks on their power, but all of them unleash very dangerous processes in order to accomplish it.  And all three of these countries can have a very direct impact on our interests, so ignoring them is not wise.

[Razgovory]

You know you have put way to many words here.  The word "Islamist" is enough, because let's be honest.  That's the problem we have isn't it?  Would anyone really give a shit if it was just corruption?

Well, you started with a comparison of him to Orban. I think there has been as much if not more discussion of Orban on this forum than there has been of erdogan, and I don't think Orban is an islamist.

Actually I started by comparing him to Chavez and the conservative obsession with him.

[Razgovory]

Raz will defend any piece of shit that Languish atheists dislike.

I will defend the right of the people to have the government they elected. I consider this principle to stand on.  Kneejerk Islamophobia and conspiracy theories are just pet peeves.

[DGuller]

Raz will defend any piece of shit that Languish atheists dislike.

I will defend the right of the people to have the government they elected. I consider this principle to stand on.  Kneejerk Islamophobia and conspiracy theories are just pet peeves.

And I will defend the right of people to elect their government on a regular rather than one-off basis, with no government chicanery that makes the exercise essentially meaningless.  That is a far more important principle if you want democracy to stick.

[alfred russel]

Raz will defend any piece of shit that Languish atheists dislike.

I will defend the right of the people to have the government they elected. I consider this principle to stand on.  Kneejerk Islamophobia and conspiracy theories are just pet peeves.

Anti Erdogan sentiment on languish isn't Islamaphobia, as has been amply demonstrated.

In a country like Turkey that has jailed hundreds through the Ergenekon trials, I'd slow down on simply dismissing conspiracy theories (not that those are the reason languish isn't fond of erdogan either).

[Valmy]

Raz will defend any piece of shit that Languish atheists dislike.

I will defend the right of the people to have the government they elected. I consider this principle to stand on.  Kneejerk Islamophobia and conspiracy theories are just pet peeves.

My very pious Turkish friends hate Erdogan...are they Islamophobic as well?

[Razgovory]

Raz will defend any piece of shit that Languish atheists dislike.

I will defend the right of the people to have the government they elected. I consider this principle to stand on.  Kneejerk Islamophobia and conspiracy theories are just pet peeves.

Anti Erdogan sentiment on languish isn't Islamaphobia, as has been amply demonstrated.

In a country like Turkey that has jailed hundreds through the Ergenekon trials, I'd slow down on simply dismissing conspiracy theories (not that those are the reason languish isn't fond of erdogan either).

Nonsense.  Anti-Erdogan sentiment on this board very much about Anti-Islamic sentiment.  If Erdogan was an Athiest, a Christian, Jew, or Buddhist would anyone suggest that suicide bombings are at his behest?  Seriously?  C'mon now.  People on this board have already expressed a desire Erdogan to be extra-legally overthrown or simply be imprisoned by the military before he came to power (for poetry no less), that Erdogan suppressed military (which has overthrown the countries government something like four times) as the source of the animus rings a bit hollow.  The longing for the the militarists who  waged war on the Kurds and invaded Cyprus so that to prevent Erdogan from waging war on the Kurds and disrupting NATO strikes me as disingenuous.

[Razgovory]

Raz will defend any piece of shit that Languish atheists dislike.

I will defend the right of the people to have the government they elected. I consider this principle to stand on.  Kneejerk Islamophobia and conspiracy theories are just pet peeves.

My very pious Turkish friends hate Erdogan...are they Islamophobic as well?

I don't know your friend.  For all I know, Erdogan beat him at softball 20 years ago.

[Valmy]

Raz will defend any piece of shit that Languish atheists dislike.

I will defend the right of the people to have the government they elected. I consider this principle to stand on.  Kneejerk Islamophobia and conspiracy theories are just pet peeves.

My very pious Turkish friends hate Erdogan...are they Islamophobic as well?

I don't know your friend.  For all I know, Erdogan beat him at softball 20 years ago.

I know I know. You are the expert on Erdogan from fucking Missouri. No need to listen to anybody else.

[Razgovory]

Raz will defend any piece of shit that Languish atheists dislike.

I will defend the right of the people to have the government they elected. I consider this principle to stand on.  Kneejerk Islamophobia and conspiracy theories are just pet peeves.

My very pious Turkish friends hate Erdogan...are they Islamophobic as well?

I don't know your friend.  For all I know, Erdogan beat him at softball 20 years ago.

I know I know. You are the expert on Erdogan from fucking Missouri. No need to listen to anybody else.

What a bizarre response to me saying "I don't know".

"My friends says this, why"

"I don't know.  I don't know your friend"

"Oh, so you know everything?!"

What the fuck is this suppose to be?

[Razgovory]

You guys want to know I'm pissy on this issue and why I don't give languish the benefit of the doubt.  Go look at the old Egypt thread.  Go look at what you guys were saying when the military butchered people in the street.  Look at the response to the crackdowns, the criminalization of political enemies.  When people were convicted for their own brutalization.  When protesters were convicted for hundreds of murders committed by the government.  Who spoke up?  Who was happy with it?  Go look at your own goddamn statements.

[DGuller]

that Erdogan suppressed military (which has overthrown the countries government something like four times) as the source of the animus rings a bit hollow.

And again you're making this up.  The source of animus is that Erdogan is becoming a fascist dictator, and is fanning the flames of Islamic extremism to get there.  The reason some people are sad to see the Turkish military defanged is that it would most certainly be the lesser evil than what Erdogan has become.  That however does not mean that him defanging the military is what all this is about.

[alfred russel]

You guys want to know I'm pissy on this issue and why I don't give languish the benefit of the doubt.  Go look at the old Egypt thread.  Go look at what you guys were saying when the military butchered people in the street.  Look at the response to the crackdowns, the criminalization of political enemies.  When people were convicted for their own brutalization.  When protesters were convicted for hundreds of murders committed by the government.  Who spoke up?  Who was happy with it?  Go look at your own goddamn statements.

Egypt and Turkey are totally separate situations.

Eygpt is a third world country without a history of democracy that is quite unstable at the moment and has a series of unappealing factions vying for power.

Turkey has been (albeit tenuously) a first world country attempting to integrate into european institutions.

[DGuller]

You guys want to know I'm pissy on this issue and why I don't give languish the benefit of the doubt.  Go look at the old Egypt thread.  Go look at what you guys were saying when the military butchered people in the street.  Look at the response to the crackdowns, the criminalization of political enemies.  When people were convicted for their own brutalization.  When protesters were convicted for hundreds of murders committed by the government.  Who spoke up?  Who was happy with it?  Go look at your own goddamn statements.

You don't need to give us the benefit of the doubt.  We'll live without it. 

It would help us tremendously though if you did give this issue some deep thought.  Under your currently stated principles, wishing that Wehrmacht overthrew Hitler makes you a horrible human being.  Hitler was popularly elected after all, whereas German junta would most certainly not be.  Then again, Germany did get a pretty good democracy after Hitler, so maybe you have a point.