Many killed in Ankara bomb blast

[Liep]

Was it suicide bombers?

[DGuller]

You have to have someone pretty fucking dedicated to do a false flag suicide bombing.  The only party involved known to use suicide bombing is the Kurdish PKK, though why they would do so against their own people doesn't make any sense to me.

The ones carrying out the bombing don't need to know they're part of a false flag attack.  They could've been a couple of ISIS operatives the Turks borrowed.

You guys are reminding me of all those conservatives who were convinced that Hugo Chavez WAS COMING STRAIGHT FOR US!  Just as Chavez wasn't going to light Latin America on fire with Communism and Obamacare, Erdogan isn't about to install a theocracy and Jihad his way across Europe.  At worst he's a Putin acting out pretending he lives in a long lost empire.

Who's saying this?  That sounds like quite a strawman.  I think what everyone is concerned about is that last part, which is a pretty bad scenario.  Let's not forget that Turkey is part of NATO, and thus we're always invested in their affairs to some extent.  And even if we're not invested, as a proponent of free society, it is frustrating to see one more example of freedoms being rolled back.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

They also threw Erdogan in jail back in the 1990's for reciting a poem.  I guess he got even.

he got even, but it's quite clear they were right in throwing him in prison. They were, however, mistaken in ever letting him out.

[Razgovory]

You have to have someone pretty fucking dedicated to do a false flag suicide bombing.  The only party involved known to use suicide bombing is the Kurdish PKK, though why they would do so against their own people doesn't make any sense to me.

The ones carrying out the bombing don't need to know they're part of a false flag attack.  They could've been a couple of ISIS operatives the Turks borrowed.

You guys are reminding me of all those conservatives who were convinced that Hugo Chavez WAS COMING STRAIGHT FOR US!  Just as Chavez wasn't going to light Latin America on fire with Communism and Obamacare, Erdogan isn't about to install a theocracy and Jihad his way across Europe.  At worst he's a Putin acting out pretending he lives in a long lost empire.

Who's saying this?  That sounds like quite a strawman.  I think what everyone is concerned about is that last part, which is a pretty bad scenario.  Let's not forget that Turkey is part of NATO, and thus we're always invested in their affairs to some extent.  And even if we're not invested, as a proponent of free society, it is frustrating to see one more example of freedoms being rolled back.

Now if it was ISIS, that's hardly a false flag.  As far as I know they aren't allied with the Turkish government.  It's likely it's Kurdish splinter group.  As to who talk about theocracy that was you back in 2013.  I embellished a bit, nobody said anything about over running Europe with a Jihad.  Now what sort of freedoms are being rolled back?  Like I said, Erdogan was tossed in jail for reciting poetry while the Mayor of Istanbul less then a decade before by the military.  Then he tosses some of them in jail of allegedly plotting to overthrow the government.  Seems like a lateral move so far as freedom is concerned.

[Valmy]

My parents were there yesterday. What a great time to visit Turkey.

[Martinus]

I see Raz is back to his old idiotic self.

[Razgovory]

I see Raz is back to his old idiotic self.

You were the one who suggested Erdogan was behind the bombing.  Do you have any proof of this.  Any proof that he's ordered a suicide bombing ever?  Please, show me what makes you say such things.  Open my eyes.

[Valmy]

Enough people hate Turkey I don't think you need some crazy theory to explain why there might be a terrorist attack.

[HisMajestyBOB]

It was Byzanteen nationalists. 

[DGuller]

Now if it was ISIS, that's hardly a false flag.  As far as I know they aren't allied with the Turkish government.  It's likely it's Kurdish splinter group.  As to who talk about theocracy that was you back in 2013.  I embellished a bit, nobody said anything about over running Europe with a Jihad.  Now what sort of freedoms are being rolled back?  Like I said, Erdogan was tossed in jail for reciting poetry while the Mayor of Istanbul less then a decade before by the military.  Then he tosses some of them in jail of allegedly plotting to overthrow the government.  Seems like a lateral move so far as freedom is concerned.

As far as the danger of theocracies, I'm sure I was talking about it in other years as well.  I know it's your schtick lately to always reflexively argue when people speak negatively about religions, but it is nevertheless true that governments where religion plays a large role are incompatible with democracy.  And unlike some of the other undemocratic governments like the Turkish junta, they make it harder to transition to democracy later.  Erdogan has been fanning the flames of religious extremism in his rise to power, and that is bad news for the development of his country, with him at the helm or not.

[Razgovory]

Nonsense.  The United States is a country where religion plays a large role, it has since the 19th century.  Democracy has done fine.  In fact I would argue the exact opposite of what you say.  Countries where religion is weakened by the state also have weak democratic traditions.  Turkey is a prime example.  Others would be Russia, China, and Mexico.  France is a functional democracy (though closer to what Erdogan wanted), but French Democracy has a been pretty bumpy.  They are on their Fifth Republic after all.  Countries that limit religion are also limiting speech.

[Valmy]

They are on their Fifth Republic after all.

If they had been more pro-religion the Nazis would have lost.

Religion has been incredibly reactionary and anti-Democratic in Catholic countries. You cannot simply come up with a universal theory of history without considering different cultural and political circumstances.

[Razgovory]

They are on their Fifth Republic after all.

If they had been more pro-religion the Nazis would have lost.

How many of the French Republics collapsed due to internal problems?

[Valmy]

They are on their Fifth Republic after all.

If they had been more pro-religion the Nazis would have lost.

How many of the French Republics collapsed due to internal problems?

One, the second. The first and fourth collapsed because of the strain of wars.

Though the first was weird democracy wise. No matter how wide, or narrow, the franchise was nobody voted. I am not sure why that was, but I guess the first couple US Presidential elections also had weird voter turnout, in the few states that actually had a popular vote. Maybe it takes awhile for that tradition to kick in.

[Razgovory]

They are on their Fifth Republic after all.

If they had been more pro-religion the Nazis would have lost.

How many of the French Republics collapsed due to internal problems?

One, the second. The first and fourth collapsed because of the strain of wars.

Strain of war is an internal problem.  Conquest in War is an external one.  I don't think anyone can say that the French 1st Republic was healthy.  The French 4th Republic suffered from the problems of the third.