The Dutch continue to be ridiculously racist and in denial about it

[Berkut]

Hint: one of these regions is inhabited predominantly by Muslims.

Yes and that has the highest rate
But the region with the second highest rate is not known for its large Muslim populations - 34% ain't so hot.

But, as I said, I am not sure the survey is really that credible. For example, for Poland the 2014 number is 45%, but in 2015 it is down to 37%. This is too much of a drop to be explained away by a popular attitude shift, so it seems the margin of error for these results is quite big.

Large margin of error relates dispersion, so it is just as likely that the problem is a lot worse.  Again, not reassuring.

Your point vs. grumbler is that he is being too literal about the 99%.  I can't speak for what is in his head but in this instance I don't think that's the problem at all.  Tyr may not have meant literally 99% but he did mean to convey the message that in a material sense the problem is confined to Muslim immigrants and is immaterial outside that community.  That is wrong as a matter of fact and dangerously complacent.

Well, to be honest I thought the situation in Western Europe is similar to what Tyr said - if it is not in fact right, then I stand corrected, but it would be good to hear that from someone who sounds credible on the subject (admittedly, you do - but not grumbler, Berkut or Raz who likely have no idea and just spout stereotypes).

I do agree with you that Eastern Europe is very antisemitic. Poland is unfortunately an extreme even within the region.

What stereotype is it that I spouted?

[Razgovory]

Self-righteous American who probably has Jewish friends.

[grumbler]

Hint: one of these regions is inhabited predominantly by Muslims.

Yes and that has the highest rate
But the region with the second highest rate is not known for its large Muslim populations - 34% ain't so hot.

But, as I said, I am not sure the survey is really that credible. For example, for Poland the 2014 number is 45%, but in 2015 it is down to 37%. This is too much of a drop to be explained away by a popular attitude shift, so it seems the margin of error for these results is quite big.

Large margin of error relates dispersion, so it is just as likely that the problem is a lot worse.  Again, not reassuring.

Your point vs. grumbler is that he is being too literal about the 99%.  I can't speak for what is in his head but in this instance I don't think that's the problem at all.  Tyr may not have meant literally 99% but he did mean to convey the message that in a material sense the problem is confined to Muslim immigrants and is immaterial outside that community.  That is wrong as a matter of fact and dangerously complacent.

Well, to be honest I thought the situation in Western Europe is similar to what Tyr said - if it is not in fact right, then I stand corrected, but it would be good to hear that from someone who sounds credible on the subject (admittedly, you do - but not grumbler, Berkut or Raz who likely have no idea and just spout stereotypes).

I do agree with you that Eastern Europe is very antisemitic. Poland is unfortunately an extreme even within the region.

What stereotype is it that I spouted?

The stereotype that you post when it is possible that you don't know the situation, as compared to Marti who posts and then is forced to concede that he has no idea.  If you lack Marti's invincible ignorance, why should you post?

[grumbler]

I know you won't actually respond to my point here and will, instead, spout some non sequitur about how I always do something or other, but can you name one "stereotype" that I have spouted in this thread.  Even one?

I didn't think so.  More Marti bullshit.

[crazy canuck]

Marti, do you have some evidence that Europe purged itself of its anti-semitism and it is only Muslim immigrants who now hold that view?

[Norgy]

Marti, do you have some evidence that Europe purged itself of its anti-semitism and it is only Muslim immigrants who now hold that view?

Well... this is mostly subjective and not evidence-based, but at least on the surface, Western Europe is far less anti-semitic than 80 years ago. Then again, there are less Jews. The old anti-semitism has more or less translated easily into anti-Islamic ideas where the elders of Zion are less important than our own politicians who apparently "sold us out" for cheap oil from the Middle East.

I think you'll still find anti-semtism among Eastern Europeans. But most of all you will find a kind of vitriol that's frightening against the Roma. This happens here too. Since the Schengen agreement was signed, you'll find Roma begging in the streets of almost any town in Norway. And the kind of hate and lack of compassion they are met with is just staggering.

North America has had its own issues with immigration, but in the back of every European's mind there seems to be this "Barbarians at the gates" scenario resulting in the end of civilised society. I blame the Romans. For a continent that once invented humanist ideals, we're fairly far from following any of them.

[Syt]

I think from non-Muslims the most common form of Anti-Jewish sentiment would be in the form of criticizing Israel. Though there's the occasional comment about Jews controlling Hollywood/the Banks. But if a celebrity is Jewish, or when Jewish traditions show up in media it's pretty uncontroversial.

[The Minsky Moment]

There are still pockets of traditional right wing AS in Europe - think the old-school LePen-ites, Haider, etc.

There is also a growing new breed of leftwing AS.  It's proponents would make the distinction, perhaps with some merit, that they are only anti-Zionist.  But it is a very reflexive and unreasoning anti-Zionism, and one that allies itself to tendencies and organizations that are outright anti-Semitic, so that at a certain point it becomes a distinction with little measurable difference.  Galloway and some of the militant boycott advocates fall into this category along with their political, academic, and activist fellow travelers. The fact that the possible next leader of the Labor Party refers to his "Hamas friends" is indicative of the problem.

For clarity - I'm not saying Corbyn is anti-Semitic, but the ease in which he refers to a violent and rabidly anti-Semitic organization like that in friendly terms is disturbing.

[Norgy]

There are still pockets of traditional right wing AS in Europe - think the old-school LePen-ites, Haider, etc.

There is also a growing new breed of leftwing AS.  It's proponents would make the distinction, perhaps with some merit, that they are only anti-Zionist.  But it is a very reflexive and unreasoning anti-Zionism, and one that allies itself to tendencies and organizations that are outright anti-Semitic, so that at a certain point it becomes a distinction with little measurable difference.  Galloway and some of the militant boycott advocates fall into this category along with their political, academic, and activist fellow travelers. The fact that the possible next leader of the Labor Party refers to his "Hamas friends" is indicative of the problem.

For clarity - I'm not saying Corbyn is anti-Semitic, but the ease in which he refers to a violent and rabidly anti-Semitic organization like that in friendly terms is disturbing.

I think you'll find anti-semites among the left, yes. The old right too, but they're more preoccupied with Muslims and, well, the left. There's an ideological mishmash on both sides that's hard to decipher even for me.

[Razgovory]

There are still pockets of traditional right wing AS in Europe - think the old-school LePen-ites, Haider, etc.

There is also a growing new breed of leftwing AS.  It's proponents would make the distinction, perhaps with some merit, that they are only anti-Zionist.  But it is a very reflexive and unreasoning anti-Zionism, and one that allies itself to tendencies and organizations that are outright anti-Semitic, so that at a certain point it becomes a distinction with little measurable difference.  Galloway and some of the militant boycott advocates fall into this category along with their political, academic, and activist fellow travelers. The fact that the possible next leader of the Labor Party refers to his "Hamas friends" is indicative of the problem.

For clarity - I'm not saying Corbyn is anti-Semitic, but the ease in which he refers to a violent and rabidly anti-Semitic organization like that in friendly terms is disturbing.

I think the left-wing ones are not quite new, but are born from the Soviet apologists, the attacks by communists on refuseniks.  George Galloway was part of that crowd at one time.  What we call anti-semitism is actually the newer form of hating Jews based on racial ideas and crazy nonsense like that.  The older one that Jews are Christ Killers still exists as well, that's probably what a lot of the Polish and Greek antisemitism comes from.  There was probably an older form of hating Jews in the Middle East that predates Zionism, but I don't know what it was called and what it was about.  It's amazing that there still are Jews around.  Or perhaps not considering that the two places with the largest number of Jews also have nuclear weapons.

[Martinus]

There are still pockets of traditional right wing AS in Europe - think the old-school LePen-ites, Haider, etc.

There is also a growing new breed of leftwing AS.  It's proponents would make the distinction, perhaps with some merit, that they are only anti-Zionist.  But it is a very reflexive and unreasoning anti-Zionism, and one that allies itself to tendencies and organizations that are outright anti-Semitic, so that at a certain point it becomes a distinction with little measurable difference.  Galloway and some of the militant boycott advocates fall into this category along with their political, academic, and activist fellow travelers. The fact that the possible next leader of the Labor Party refers to his "Hamas friends" is indicative of the problem.

For clarity - I'm not saying Corbyn is anti-Semitic, but the ease in which he refers to a violent and rabidly anti-Semitic organization like that in friendly terms is disturbing.

I think the left-wing ones are not quite new, but are born from the Soviet apologists, the attacks by communists on refuseniks.  George Galloway was part of that crowd at one time.  What we call anti-semitism is actually the newer form of hating Jews based on racial ideas and crazy nonsense like that.  The older one that Jews are Christ Killers still exists as well, that's probably what a lot of the Polish and Greek antisemitism comes from.  There was probably an older form of hating Jews in the Middle East that predates Zionism, but I don't know what it was called and what it was about.  It's amazing that there still are Jews around.  Or perhaps not considering that the two places with the largest number of Jews also have nuclear weapons.

"Christ-killers" antisemitism is pretty much non-existent in Poland. Now, the existing antisemitism is perpetrated to a large extent by the Catholic church (and associated organisations) but this is more along the lines of the Jewish-masonic-gay-atheist conspiracy to destroy traditional Polish values and get to our precious bodily fluids than anything motivated by actual religion.

[Martinus]

For the record, as this often comes as a surprise to Americans used to a Southern Baptist style of piety, Poles are not a very pious nations - people are happy to ignore the Catholic Church's teachings when it is inconvenient, e.g. on contraception or death penalty. Poles are very traditional and deferent to the Church on things political, though (so, for example, we have one of the most restrictive abortion laws in Europe - but also one of the largest "abortion underground" and "abortion tourism" industries as well).

The Church is quite happy to play along, being more interested in secular power and its trappings (so, getting public money; making sure the laws respect "Catholic morality"; or prosecuting an occasional heavy metal singer who burns the Bible on stage) than actually saving people's souls or even, say, helping poor parents who decide to keep the baby (or cannot afford a foreign abortion).

[Norgy]

There are still pockets of traditional right wing AS in Europe - think the old-school LePen-ites, Haider, etc.

There is also a growing new breed of leftwing AS.  It's proponents would make the distinction, perhaps with some merit, that they are only anti-Zionist.  But it is a very reflexive and unreasoning anti-Zionism, and one that allies itself to tendencies and organizations that are outright anti-Semitic, so that at a certain point it becomes a distinction with little measurable difference.  Galloway and some of the militant boycott advocates fall into this category along with their political, academic, and activist fellow travelers. The fact that the possible next leader of the Labor Party refers to his "Hamas friends" is indicative of the problem.

For clarity - I'm not saying Corbyn is anti-Semitic, but the ease in which he refers to a violent and rabidly anti-Semitic organization like that in friendly terms is disturbing.

I think the left-wing ones are not quite new, but are born from the Soviet apologists, the attacks by communists on refuseniks.  George Galloway was part of that crowd at one time.  What we call anti-semitism is actually the newer form of hating Jews based on racial ideas and crazy nonsense like that.  The older one that Jews are Christ Killers still exists as well, that's probably what a lot of the Polish and Greek antisemitism comes from.  There was probably an older form of hating Jews in the Middle East that predates Zionism, but I don't know what it was called and what it was about.  It's amazing that there still are Jews around.  Or perhaps not considering that the two places with the largest number of Jews also have nuclear weapons.

Anthony D. Smith describes Jews as the first national ethnic group. I sort of understand why. While other groups basically just had perhaps a common language, Jews had a shared history, a religion and well-defined rules as to who belonged to the group. This "otherness" obviously made them stick out. I guess you could say anti-semitism in Europe is less overt today than before. But I am sure a few would raise an eyebrow if you said you were Jewish.

[Martinus]

I guess when talking about anti-semitism people usually mean the Christian world (the roots of antisemitism in the Muslim world are different and more recent, I would say). If you consider it from this perspective, then it is explainable, given that until recently Jews were really the only ethnic and religious group that existed throughout the Christian world (as opposed to a localised, regional minority) and was not Christian.

Given what was done to Muslims in Spain, pagans in Eastern Europe or Aztecs in Mexico after the Spanish conquest, you could say that Jews got off light.

[Norgy]

Aztecs rarely run the international finance sector.  :