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Frreeeeeedoooooom in the US: State by state

Started by The Larch, June 24, 2009, 08:01:25 AM

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Habbaku

Quote from: Berkut on June 24, 2009, 04:18:08 PM
Really?

"Most" of them?

I cannot even think of one of them who would agree with that statement.

This entire thread is an argument against a strawman.  I can't fault Beeb too much for joining the fun.
The medievals were only too right in taking nolo episcopari as the best reason a man could give to others for making him a bishop. Give me a king whose chief interest in life is stamps, railways, or race-horses; and who has the power to sack his Vizier (or whatever you care to call him) if he does not like the cut of his trousers.

Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so as to refer to people.

-J. R. R. Tolkien

DGuller

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 24, 2009, 04:24:09 PM
That's not true.  The Public Choice school of economics is very much rooted in libertarianism and directly addresses the issue of distortions created by the "haves" buying favorable regulation.
Buying regulation is only a small part of the problem.  In general, these days we live in a highly interdependent society.  That means that most individuals can have their rights effectively curtailed by economic pressure alone.  Libertarians, even small-l libertarians, don't realize the possible implications of that, and instead stick to the unrealistic assumption that free market would remove all the undue influences by the haves over the have-nots.

Razgovory

Quote from: Habbaku on June 24, 2009, 04:25:30 PM
Quote from: Berkut on June 24, 2009, 04:18:08 PM
Really?

"Most" of them?

I cannot even think of one of them who would agree with that statement.

This entire thread is an argument against a strawman.  I can't fault Beeb too much for joining the fun.

All arguments against Libertarians are strawman type attacks because there aren't any actual libertarians.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Neil

Quote from: Martinus on June 24, 2009, 03:34:33 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 24, 2009, 12:10:27 PMAs for homeschooling, they're obsessed with it because sending children to public schools is sending them for government indoctrination.  Again they have somewhat of a point there.

I disagree. If anything, parental authority seems to be entirely anti-libertarian - after all, it seems to postulate that one human being should have a power over another by the simple virtue of genetic makeup. In fact, a consistently libertarian position would involve depriving parents of any authority over their children.

Of course, libertarians are too dumb to see how stupid they are. :P
Libertarian != anarchist.

But then again, Martinus is too dumb (and not a real lawyer) to see how stupid his posts are.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Admiral Yi

Quote from: DGuller on June 24, 2009, 04:33:52 PM
Buying regulation is only a small part of the problem.  In general, these days we live in a highly interdependent society.  That means that most individuals can have their rights effectively curtailed by economic pressure alone.  Libertarians, even small-l libertarians, don't realize the possible implications of that, and instead stick to the unrealistic assumption that free market would remove all the undue influences by the haves over the have-nots.
If you're not talking regulation then you're talking about private exchange.  So when you talk about curtailed rights and undue influence you're talking about public limitations on what behavior private parties can contract for.  Who are we to decide?

Barrister

Quote from: Berkut on June 24, 2009, 04:18:08 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 24, 2009, 04:14:05 PM

The thing is that most libertarians don't like the idea of a tradeoff.  Liberty trumps everything else.

Really?

"Most" of them?

I cannot even think of one of them who would agree with that statement.

Hey - at least I threw in a "most". :P

It's very difficult to define what members of any ideology might believe in.  That was my 30 second attempt at it.
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

Iormlund

Quote from: alfred russel on June 24, 2009, 10:23:20 AM
I agree with them that it is annoying to be in a hurry and have to wait 10 minutes at a random checkpoint to pass a sobriety test. Also, as I recently got a seatbelt violation ticket on a trip that was a couple of blocks, I sympathize with them there.

Eh. That doesn't make sense. Most accidents take place during short trips. That's precisely when you want to have your seatbelt on.
Also, how would have the cop known you were only traveling a couple blocks?

DGuller

Quote from: Iormlund on June 24, 2009, 05:41:10 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 24, 2009, 10:23:20 AM
I agree with them that it is annoying to be in a hurry and have to wait 10 minutes at a random checkpoint to pass a sobriety test. Also, as I recently got a seatbelt violation ticket on a trip that was a couple of blocks, I sympathize with them there.

Eh. That doesn't make sense. Most accidents take place during short trips. That's precisely when you want to have your seatbelt on.
Also, how would have the cop known you were only traveling a couple blocks?
That is true.  About a quarter of accidents happen within 1 mile of one's home.

ulmont

Quote from: DGuller on June 24, 2009, 05:46:31 PM
That is true.  About a quarter of accidents happen within 1 mile of one's home.

Well, no shit, considering almost all trips will involve you being within 1 mile of one's home on the outset and the return...

DGuller

Quote from: ulmont on June 24, 2009, 06:05:54 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 24, 2009, 05:46:31 PM
That is true.  About a quarter of accidents happen within 1 mile of one's home.

Well, no shit, considering almost all trips will involve you being within 1 mile of one's home on the outset and the return...
You are right that this stat is meaningless without also knowing the percentage of time spent within 1 mile of your home.  I was merely trying to sound smart and wasn't expecting anyone to catch me.

alfred russel

Quote from: Iormlund on June 24, 2009, 05:41:10 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 24, 2009, 10:23:20 AM
I agree with them that it is annoying to be in a hurry and have to wait 10 minutes at a random checkpoint to pass a sobriety test. Also, as I recently got a seatbelt violation ticket on a trip that was a couple of blocks, I sympathize with them there.

Eh. That doesn't make sense. Most accidents take place during short trips. That's precisely when you want to have your seatbelt on.
Also, how would have the cop known you were only traveling a couple blocks?

I was picking up take out on my way home from work. I had the food in the passenger seat, and my address was on my driver's license--he knew my origin and destination.  I don't really care; I know I broke the law and it is highly dangerous to drive 35 mph for a couple blocks without a seatbelt etc., but it is still seems lame (at least to me).
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

There's a fine line between salvation and drinking poison in the jungle.

I'm embarrassed. I've been making the mistake of associating with you. It won't happen again. :)
-garbon, February 23, 2014

Grey Fox

Colonel Caliga is Awesome.

The Larch

#87
Quote from: alfred russel on June 24, 2009, 06:51:51 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on June 24, 2009, 05:41:10 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 24, 2009, 10:23:20 AM
I agree with them that it is annoying to be in a hurry and have to wait 10 minutes at a random checkpoint to pass a sobriety test. Also, as I recently got a seatbelt violation ticket on a trip that was a couple of blocks, I sympathize with them there.

Eh. That doesn't make sense. Most accidents take place during short trips. That's precisely when you want to have your seatbelt on.
Also, how would have the cop known you were only traveling a couple blocks?

I was picking up take out on my way home from work. I had the food in the passenger seat, and my address was on my driver's license--he knew my origin and destination.  I don't really care; I know I broke the law and it is highly dangerous to drive 35 mph for a couple blocks without a seatbelt etc., but it is still seems lame (at least to me).

Then the question is, why did you take your car to pick up take out food from a couple of blocks away?  :P You can, you know...walk.

Martinus

Quote from: The Larch on June 25, 2009, 02:09:31 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 24, 2009, 06:51:51 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on June 24, 2009, 05:41:10 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 24, 2009, 10:23:20 AM
I agree with them that it is annoying to be in a hurry and have to wait 10 minutes at a random checkpoint to pass a sobriety test. Also, as I recently got a seatbelt violation ticket on a trip that was a couple of blocks, I sympathize with them there.

Eh. That doesn't make sense. Most accidents take place during short trips. That's precisely when you want to have your seatbelt on.
Also, how would have the cop known you were only traveling a couple blocks?

I was picking up take out on my way home from work. I had the food in the passenger seat, and my address was on my driver's license--he knew my origin and destination.  I don't really care; I know I broke the law and it is highly dangerous to drive 35 mph for a couple blocks without a seatbelt etc., but it is still seems lame (at least to me).

Then the question is, why did you take your car to pick up take out food from a couple of blocks away? :p You can, you know...walk.

Or take public transport.

Berkut

You guys need to learn how to read.

Quote
I was picking up take out on my way home from work
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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