Frreeeeeedoooooom in the US: State by state

[Razgovory]

Can somebody explain to me why libertarians consider less restrictions on pollution a sign of freedom? If all pollution remained only on your property, then sure, I can buy that. But since that's not the case, ISTM that states which have laxer regulations are actually less free, because my health, aesthetic enjoyment of the environment, and quality of life are now being infringed upon somebody else, no?

Libertarians are concerned with nominal freedom from the government.  They are not at all concerned about freedom from other sources of coercion.  This is the biggest reason why their ideology is utterly absurd, and why they're so often missing the forest for the trees.

What I thought was interesting was while they bashed Washington and Lincoln for putting down uprisings with military force and Teddy Roosevelt for sending the military in during the coal strike they made no mention of Hayes and use of military force during the great railroad strike.

[DGuller]

Okay so NY is fucked up but we have something no other state has.  Two State Senates!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/25/nyregion/25albany.html?hp

I guess New Yorkers believe that you can't have too much of a good thing.

[Martinus]

Can somebody explain to me why libertarians consider less restrictions on pollution a sign of freedom? If all pollution remained only on your property, then sure, I can buy that. But since that's not the case, ISTM that states which have laxer regulations are actually less free, because my health, aesthetic enjoyment of the environment, and quality of life are now being infringed upon somebody else, no?

Libertarians are concerned with nominal freedom from the government.  They are not at all concerned about freedom from other sources of coercion.  This is the biggest reason why their ideology is utterly absurd, and why they're so often missing the forest for the trees.

Indeed. For example they completely seem to disregard the problem created by unequal resources in a completely "free" society.

[Martinus]

As for homeschooling, they're obsessed with it because sending children to public schools is sending them for government indoctrination.  Again they have somewhat of a point there.

I disagree. If anything, parental authority seems to be entirely anti-libertarian - after all, it seems to postulate that one human being should have a power over another by the simple virtue of genetic makeup. In fact, a consistently libertarian position would involve depriving parents of any authority over their children.

Of course, libertarians are too dumb to see how stupid they are.

[Martinus]

Libertarians are concerned with nominal freedom from the government.  They are not at all concerned about freedom from other sources of coercion.  This is the biggest reason why their ideology is utterly absurd, and why they're so often missing the forest for the trees.

That is correct.  At the core of Libertarian Party values, the party is really not a pro-freedom party.  Rather, it's an anti-government party.... not an anarchist party per se, but rather one that just despises government as is.

This is why so many libertarians make a distinction between Libertarians and libertarians.  I think it's possible to be a libertarian and dislike big government, but yet still recognize the necessity of government overall.  That message is often missed or drowned out, though.

Which is what makes libertarianism so retarded.

After all, the government is at least supposed to be trained in addressing social and political problems of individuals.

Libertarians are the political equivalent of people who prefer to "listen to their bodies" and use "home medicine" (chicken broth and garlic) instead of going to a professional physician when there is something wrong with their health.

[Ed Anger]

Children are property.

[Barrister]

Which is what makes libertarianism so retarded.

After all, the government is at least supposed to be trained in addressing social and political problems of individuals.

Libertarians are the political equivalent of people who prefer to "listen to their bodies" and use "home medicine" (chicken broth and garlic) instead of going to a professional physician when there is something wrong with their health.

We haven't seen an insane Marti analogy for awhile.  I was starting to miss them.

[Martinus]

Which is what makes libertarianism so retarded.

After all, the government is at least supposed to be trained in addressing social and political problems of individuals.

Libertarians are the political equivalent of people who prefer to "listen to their bodies" and use "home medicine" (chicken broth and garlic) instead of going to a professional physician when there is something wrong with their health.

We haven't seen an insane Marti analogy for awhile.  I was starting to miss them.

They are not insane. They are visionary. 

[Berkut]

After all, the government is at least supposed to be trained in addressing social and political problems of individuals.

x infinity

You know who else is so trained, or at least claims to be?

The clergy.

[grumbler]

Opposed Henry Clay's American System

Ok what sort of insane freak would actually find opposition to the American System a positive?

The one who understands that mercantilism was a stupid and self-destructive policy?

[The Larch]

I don't really know how that works in the USA, but over here they're performed mostly late at night in nightlife hotspots and during peak times of the year, so IMO they're warranted. It's not just about fining, but about road security, by taking away drunk drivers.

You're not disproving what I'm saying.  Doing random drunk driving testing during times of high likelihood of drunk driving is still random testing.  You're still testing someone who has not personally exhibited signs of any wrongdoing.  Effectiveness and respect for personal freedom are not the same thing.

Personally, it doesn't bother me. Random testing also has a preventive and disuasory function with something that is not to joke about.

[Barrister]

I don't really know how that works in the USA, but over here they're performed mostly late at night in nightlife hotspots and during peak times of the year, so IMO they're warranted. It's not just about fining, but about road security, by taking away drunk drivers.

You're not disproving what I'm saying.  Doing random drunk driving testing during times of high likelihood of drunk driving is still random testing.  You're still testing someone who has not personally exhibited signs of any wrongdoing.  Effectiveness and respect for personal freedom are not the same thing.

Personally, it doesn't bother me. Random testing also has a preventive and disuasory function with something that is not to joke about.

This is true, and I think random roadside testing is a great law enforcement tool.

But it is a tradeoff of "freedom".  You are "punishing" people who have done nothing wrong, and of whom the police have no reason to suspect.

The thing is that most libertarians don't like the idea of a tradeoff.  Liberty trumps everything else.

[Berkut]

The thing is that most libertarians don't like the idea of a tradeoff.  Liberty trumps everything else.

Really?

"Most" of them?

I cannot even think of one of them who would agree with that statement.

[katmai]

Alaska's big problem is fiscal policy. Over a quarter
of the state's workforce is employed by state or
local government, and that figure does not include
federal employees. Alaska has the third highest debt
ratio in the country and the second highest state and
local government spending ratio. However, Alaska
does extremely well on personal freedom, scoring 1st
on our ranking. Reasons for its score include: fully
legalized possession of small amounts of marijuana
(accomplished through a court ruling), the best (least
restrictive) gun laws in the country, recognition of
same-sex domestic partnerships, and possibly the
best homeschooling laws in the country. On economic
regulation, Alaska could do better by reverting to the
federal minimum wage, adopting right-to-work, and
going much further with eminent domain reform.
Alaska has done relatively well on health insurance
regulation and occupational licensing.

[Admiral Yi]

Indeed. For example they completely seem to disregard the problem created by unequal resources in a completely "free" society.

That's not true.  The Public Choice school of economics is very much rooted in libertarianism and directly addresses the issue of distortions created by the "haves" buying favorable regulation.