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Frreeeeeedoooooom in the US: State by state

Started by The Larch, June 24, 2009, 08:01:25 AM

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Razgovory

Quote from: DGuller on June 24, 2009, 12:06:56 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on June 24, 2009, 09:58:32 AM
Can somebody explain to me why libertarians consider less restrictions on pollution a sign of freedom? If all pollution remained only on your property, then sure, I can buy that. But since that's not the case, ISTM that states which have laxer regulations are actually less free, because my health, aesthetic enjoyment of the environment, and quality of life are now being infringed upon somebody else, no?
Libertarians are concerned with nominal freedom from the government.  They are not at all concerned about freedom from other sources of coercion.  This is the biggest reason why their ideology is utterly absurd, and why they're so often missing the forest for the trees.

What I thought was interesting was while they bashed Washington and Lincoln for putting down uprisings with military force and Teddy Roosevelt for sending the military in during the coal strike they made no mention of Hayes and use of military force during the great railroad strike.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

DGuller

Quote from: Vince on June 24, 2009, 01:56:53 PM
Okay so NY is fucked up but we have something no other state has.  Two State Senates!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/25/nyregion/25albany.html?hp
I guess New Yorkers believe that you can't have too much of a good thing.

Martinus

Quote from: DGuller on June 24, 2009, 12:06:56 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on June 24, 2009, 09:58:32 AM
Can somebody explain to me why libertarians consider less restrictions on pollution a sign of freedom? If all pollution remained only on your property, then sure, I can buy that. But since that's not the case, ISTM that states which have laxer regulations are actually less free, because my health, aesthetic enjoyment of the environment, and quality of life are now being infringed upon somebody else, no?
Libertarians are concerned with nominal freedom from the government.  They are not at all concerned about freedom from other sources of coercion.  This is the biggest reason why their ideology is utterly absurd, and why they're so often missing the forest for the trees.

Indeed. For example they completely seem to disregard the problem created by unequal resources in a completely "free" society.

Martinus

Quote from: DGuller on June 24, 2009, 12:10:27 PMAs for homeschooling, they're obsessed with it because sending children to public schools is sending them for government indoctrination.  Again they have somewhat of a point there.

I disagree. If anything, parental authority seems to be entirely anti-libertarian - after all, it seems to postulate that one human being should have a power over another by the simple virtue of genetic makeup. In fact, a consistently libertarian position would involve depriving parents of any authority over their children.

Of course, libertarians are too dumb to see how stupid they are. :P

Martinus

Quote from: Caliga on June 24, 2009, 12:41:50 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 24, 2009, 12:06:56 PM
Libertarians are concerned with nominal freedom from the government.  They are not at all concerned about freedom from other sources of coercion.  This is the biggest reason why their ideology is utterly absurd, and why they're so often missing the forest for the trees.
That is correct.  At the core of Libertarian Party values, the party is really not a pro-freedom party.  Rather, it's an anti-government party.... not an anarchist party per se, but rather one that just despises government as is.

This is why so many libertarians make a distinction between Libertarians and libertarians.  I think it's possible to be a libertarian and dislike big government, but yet still recognize the necessity of government overall.  That message is often missed or drowned out, though.

Which is what makes libertarianism so retarded.

After all, the government is at least supposed to be trained in addressing social and political problems of individuals.

Libertarians are the political equivalent of people who prefer to "listen to their bodies" and use "home medicine" (chicken broth and garlic) instead of going to a professional physician when there is something wrong with their health. ;)

Ed Anger

Stay Alive...Let the Man Drive

Barrister

Quote from: Martinus on June 24, 2009, 03:37:46 PM
Which is what makes libertarianism so retarded.

After all, the government is at least supposed to be trained in addressing social and political problems of individuals.

Libertarians are the political equivalent of people who prefer to "listen to their bodies" and use "home medicine" (chicken broth and garlic) instead of going to a professional physician when there is something wrong with their health. ;)

We haven't seen an insane Marti analogy for awhile.  I was starting to miss them. :hug:
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

Martinus

Quote from: Barrister on June 24, 2009, 03:57:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on June 24, 2009, 03:37:46 PM
Which is what makes libertarianism so retarded.

After all, the government is at least supposed to be trained in addressing social and political problems of individuals.

Libertarians are the political equivalent of people who prefer to "listen to their bodies" and use "home medicine" (chicken broth and garlic) instead of going to a professional physician when there is something wrong with their health. ;)

We haven't seen an insane Marti analogy for awhile.  I was starting to miss them. :hug:

They are not insane. They are visionary.  :cool:

Berkut

Quote from: Martinus on June 24, 2009, 03:37:46 PM

After all, the government is at least supposed to be trained in addressing social and political problems of individuals.


:lmfao: x infinity

You know who else is so trained, or at least claims to be?

The clergy.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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grumbler

Quote from: Valmy on June 24, 2009, 08:27:23 AM
QuoteOpposed Henry Clay's American System

Ok what sort of insane freak would actually find opposition to the American System a positive?
The one who understands that mercantilism was a stupid and self-destructive policy?
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

The Larch

Quote from: DGuller on June 24, 2009, 01:37:47 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 24, 2009, 12:35:26 PM
I don't really know how that works in the USA, but over here they're performed mostly late at night in nightlife hotspots and during peak times of the year, so IMO they're warranted. It's not just about fining, but about road security, by taking away drunk drivers.
You're not disproving what I'm saying.  Doing random drunk driving testing during times of high likelihood of drunk driving is still random testing.  You're still testing someone who has not personally exhibited signs of any wrongdoing.  Effectiveness and respect for personal freedom are not the same thing.

Personally, it doesn't bother me. Random testing also has a preventive and disuasory function with something that is not to joke about.

Barrister

Quote from: The Larch on June 24, 2009, 04:09:34 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 24, 2009, 01:37:47 PM
Quote from: The Larch on June 24, 2009, 12:35:26 PM
I don't really know how that works in the USA, but over here they're performed mostly late at night in nightlife hotspots and during peak times of the year, so IMO they're warranted. It's not just about fining, but about road security, by taking away drunk drivers.
You're not disproving what I'm saying.  Doing random drunk driving testing during times of high likelihood of drunk driving is still random testing.  You're still testing someone who has not personally exhibited signs of any wrongdoing.  Effectiveness and respect for personal freedom are not the same thing.

Personally, it doesn't bother me. Random testing also has a preventive and disuasory function with something that is not to joke about.

This is true, and I think random roadside testing is a great law enforcement tool.

But it is a tradeoff of "freedom".  You are "punishing" people who have done nothing wrong, and of whom the police have no reason to suspect.

The thing is that most libertarians don't like the idea of a tradeoff.  Liberty trumps everything else.
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

Berkut

Quote from: Barrister on June 24, 2009, 04:14:05 PM

The thing is that most libertarians don't like the idea of a tradeoff.  Liberty trumps everything else.

Really?

"Most" of them?

I cannot even think of one of them who would agree with that statement.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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katmai

QuoteAlaska's big problem is fiscal policy. Over a quarter
of the state's workforce is employed by state or
local government, and that figure does not include
federal employees. Alaska has the third highest debt
ratio in the country and the second highest state and
local government spending ratio. However, Alaska
does extremely well on personal freedom, scoring 1st
on our ranking. Reasons for its score include: fully
legalized possession of small amounts of marijuana
(accomplished through a court ruling), the best (least
restrictive) gun laws in the country, recognition of
same-sex domestic partnerships, and possibly the
best homeschooling laws in the country.
On economic
regulation, Alaska could do better by reverting to the
federal minimum wage, adopting right-to-work, and
going much further with eminent domain reform.
Alaska has done relatively well on health insurance
regulation and occupational licensing.
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son

Admiral Yi

Quote from: Martinus on June 24, 2009, 03:32:02 PM
Indeed. For example they completely seem to disregard the problem created by unequal resources in a completely "free" society.
That's not true.  The Public Choice school of economics is very much rooted in libertarianism and directly addresses the issue of distortions created by the "haves" buying favorable regulation.