The Off Topic Topic

[Zanza]

German train drivers will strike for six days starting on Tuesday. I wonder if this is the time to replace them all with computers. If we can make cars drive by themselves, that should be even simpler with trains.

Constant issue with Transport for London. So far here, at least, I don't think they can be replaced (yet)

Seems to be a much higher one time investment for a rather poor return. And I don't know many governments who invest heavily in rail infrastructure if they don't have to.

As cars can already "see" in front of them with a variety of sensors (radar, lidar, infrared, stereo-cameras etc.) the technology is a commodity. This allows cars to read traffic signs (i.e. it should be possible to read signals next to the train track), allows them to identify other traffic (cars, pedestrians, bicyclist) that is much more complex than that encountered on train tracks. The technology works at the speeds train run (maybe not at the very highest speeds). All those assistance systems cost at most several thousand Euro per car. The expensive part would be the development of the system for trains and then putting it into the trains.
The return would be that you wouldn't need thousands of train drivers anymore. That should easily pay for the introduction of the systems. I guess you can't fire them anyway, so maybe the cost savings isn't that great, but you could slowly phase it in and then reduce the number of train drivers slowly with natural fluctuation.

[Zanza]

Not well paid? How much is well paid for you?

Right? That's high even here

Train drivers in the UK make considerably more at 35.000-60.000 GBP per year according to this:
https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/advice/planning/jobprofiles/Pages/TrainDriver.aspx

[Liep]

Not well paid? How much is well paid for you?

Right? That's high even here

Train drivers in the UK make considerably more at 35.000-60.000 GBP per year according to this:
https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/advice/planning/jobprofiles/Pages/TrainDriver.aspx

Probably only instructors who earn 60.000 GBP per year, at least it is here and we have about the same starting wage for a qualified driver at 35.

[Liep]

As cars can already "see" in front of them with a variety of sensors (radar, lidar, infrared, stereo-cameras etc.) the technology is a commodity. This allows cars to read traffic signs (i.e. it should be possible to read signals next to the train track), allows them to identify other traffic (cars, pedestrians, bicyclist) that is much more complex than that encountered on train tracks. The technology works at the speeds train run (maybe not at the very highest speeds). All those assistance systems cost at most several thousand Euro per car. The expensive part would be the development of the system for trains and then putting it into the trains.
The return would be that you wouldn't need thousands of train drivers anymore. That should easily pay for the introduction of the systems. I guess you can't fire them anyway, so maybe the cost savings isn't that great, but you could slowly phase it in and then reduce the number of train drivers slowly with natural fluctuation.

I think the system is already developed, it's just not widely used outside of metro settings. They're testing automatic (GPS) braking for some of our trains and the biggest problem seems to be weather impact. It's pretty easy to sense when the track is slippery for a driver, but apparently not so much for a computer. But when they've found a way to figure that out it's pretty much ready to drive itself
They're not going to though, because it'd cost too much money to change and secure the infrastructure and trains to accommodate for not having actual eyes out there.

Last estimate here was 40 years to earn back the investment through lowered wage costs, and as it really only delivers in less HR hassle (and we've only striked for 4 hours in the last 8 or so years) and provides less flexibility on board the trains in case of emergencies it didn't seem like such a good idea.

[MadImmortalMan]

You know what's not a thing anymore? Public drinking fountains. When exactly did they stop installing those?

[Syt]

There's several around the tourist areas of Vienna.

[derspiess]

Boy, do we ever need Seedy to get back here & stir shit up.  Public transit worker salaries & public drinking fountains?   

[alfred russel]

Don't forget cost of living too. Germany is more expensive than the US.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Germany

No, that doesn't seem to be true.

I'm skeptical--Germany definitely seems more expensive. Maybe the very recent strengthening of the dollar skews things, and me living in Georgia almost certainly does. However, take the restaurant category. It seems suspicious that the directly comparable categories (coke, water, and mcdonalds) all show Germany to be more expensive while all the other categories are less directly comparable but show the opposite effect.

Also, many of the prices seem much too high for the US--but that might be bias that I'm living in Atlanta.

[Admiral Yi]

Maybe it's accounted for by the fact that every square meter of Germany counts as city center.

I'm surprised too.

[alfred russel]

You know what's not a thing anymore? Public drinking fountains. When exactly did they stop installing those?

White people lost interest in water fountains once they couldn't exclude black people from them.

(doing my best to channel CdM for derspeiss)

More seriously, I bet it has something to do with bottled water being sold everywhere. I've heard of legal action being taken to mandate water fountains from stadiums that planned to go without them (presumably because people had access to buy $5 water or whatever, making them unnecessary for public health).

Also, and this would have seemed like crazy talk to me as a kid, I sometimes worry about how hygenic they are. I use them from time to time, but prefer to drink bottled water. That really seems silly considering I grew up drinking from them, but it is what it is.

[Habbaku]

Also, and this would have seemed like crazy talk to me as a kid, I sometimes worry about how hygenic they are. I use them from time to time, but prefer to drink bottled water. That really seems silly considering I grew up drinking from them, but it is what it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYdt4UikO1o

[Razgovory]

Don't forget cost of living too. Germany is more expensive than the US.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Germany

No, that doesn't seem to be true.

I'm skeptical--Germany definitely seems more expensive. Maybe the very recent strengthening of the dollar skews things, and me living in Georgia almost certainly does. However, take the restaurant category. It seems suspicious that the directly comparable categories (coke, water, and mcdonalds) all show Germany to be more expensive while all the other categories are less directly comparable but show the opposite effect.

Also, many of the prices seem much too high for the US--but that might be bias that I'm living in Atlanta.

It seems the cost of rent and groceries are what really push the price down.  Not something a person who is just visiting would notice.

[MadImmortalMan]

It seems the cost of rent and groceries are what really push the price down.  Not something a person who is just visiting would notice.

Well if Europe does QE they might catch up on the rent prices.

[Admiral Yi]

Well if Europe does QE they might catch up on the rent prices.

Shouldn't impact the price in dollars.

[alfred russel]

It seems odd to me that rent costs are higher in the US than in Germany considering Germany has 80m people and is in such dire need of lebensraum. But it could be a function of relatively lower wages in Germany preventing bidding up real estate, or again apples may not be compared to apples.