The Off Topic Topic

[Admiral Yi]

I do but no matter what I do, how I perform or how much salary I ask. If my employer decides to shut me down, I'll be shut down.

I think maybe you didn't understand  my previous statement.

I meant that a worker would prefer that his job exist rather than it not exist.

Not that he has control  over whether it exists.

[Grey Fox]

Ok.

So, with that logic, go unions?

[Capetan Mihali]

Kraftwerk are giving a series of concerts at the Vienna Burgtheater; each concert will be one of their album releases (in total 7 or 8). I failed to get any tickets (or rather: I'm not willing to pay 65.- for the ticket classes that are still available). I may try and get tickets to a Congolese troupe's interpretation of Verdi's MacBeth instead.

It'd be very interesting to see them do "Kraftwerk" or "Kraftwerk II" today after changing styles so radically...

[Agelastus]

Well, well, well...

Professional cycling doth come my way...

http://www.womenstour.co.uk/stages/index.php#.U2ed0yxOXmh

Stage 1 Oundle to Northampton goes right through my home-town.

I just hope they don't follow the instructions to get through my town that are listed on their official pdf download of distances, points and expected times.

http://www.womenstour.co.uk/stages/stage1/index.php#.U2eekSxOXmh - the Stage 1 ETA download.

They'll never finish the race if they do.

[There's a right where there should be a left; I'd have thought that they'd have better quality control on something like this! Presumably on the day the barriers will direct them the correct way onto Gold Street and not Gladstone Street...]

[mongers]

Well, well, well...

Professional cycling doth come my way...

http://www.womenstour.co.uk/stages/index.php#.U2ed0yxOXmh

Stage 1 Oundle to Northampton goes right through my home-town.

I just hope they don't follow the instructions to get through my town that are listed on their official pdf download of distances, points and expected times.

http://www.womenstour.co.uk/stages/stage1/index.php#.U2eekSxOXmh - the Stage 1 ETA download.

They'll never finish the race if they do.

[There's a right where there should be a left; I'd have thought that they'd have better quality control on something like this! Presumably on the day the barriers will direct them the correct way onto Gold Street and not Gladstone Street...]

More importantly you need to position yourself just right for the optimal view of some nice arses going by. 

[Zanza]

One thing that is rarely mentioned when the differences between unions in Europe and America are discussed is that - at least in Germany - the employers also "unionize" and the union negotiates with some other collective that represents most companies of a certain sector of industry. It's rather rare that it is union against one company in Germany (only for very big ones like postal service, railway or very niche ones like air traffic control) and that takes away quite a bit of the competitiveness argument as at least domestic competitors would also be affected and gives the company side more power as well in negotiations because they are bigger too.

[Admiral Yi]

German automakers are exposed to international competition.

[Josquius]

Where does Germany differ to the polder model?

[sbr]

One thing that is rarely mentioned when the differences between unions in Europe and America are discussed is that - at least in Germany - the employers also "unionize" and the union negotiates with some other collective that represents most companies of a certain sector of industry. It's rather rare that it is union against one company in Germany (only for very big ones like postal service, railway or very niche ones like air traffic control) and that takes away quite a bit of the competitiveness argument as at least domestic competitors would also be affected and gives the company side more power as well in negotiations because they are bigger too.

I know this is the way things work with my job, and I think it is pretty standard in the construction industry, but I dont know that for sure.

IBEW (electrical union) negotiates with NECA (National Electrical Contractors Assc.), not with the individual companies.

[Duque de Bragança]

My new apartment has a neighbor who is a chain smoker. You can smell the stale smoke already in the hallway. His door has brown stains on the outside where the door connects to the frame. I have a colleague who, funnily enough, used to live above him years ago. She said in summer she couldn't open her windows, because he had his open and the smoke would drift into her apartment.

It seems that there's a connection through the ventilation between his and my apartment through the bathroom. My jackets in the little anteroom  and the towels in the bathroom are already starting to smell like smoke. My landlady thought that the guy living in the apartment was a smoker, despite his protestations to the contrary. I will contact her today and let her know what the situation is, and I'll also get some air fresheners for all rooms.

Missing the Balkan techno-pop already?

[Razgovory]

Presumably a Union can make non-exorbitant demands.  If a Union was to get greedy and eventually destroy itself, I would agree that would not be a bad thing.  But then I would say "Greed", is the problem not the Union.  After all many, many companies have been destroyed by the greed of their owners or upper management.  Almost certainly more then ones that have been destroyed by a greedy union.  I can agree that "Greed" is a bad thing.

You can anything you want to, but that doesn't change the fact that one worker who makes an exorbitant wage demand can't kill a company, but a union that does can.

Presumably he can if the company accedes to his demands.

[Zanza]

German automakers are exposed to international competition.

Your point being? I thought we were talking unions in general? Most people work in service industries and often don't face as much foreign competition as a manufacturer of durable goods.

[Zanza]

Where does Germany differ to the polder model?

I am not an expert, but it sounds like the state played a stronger role in that than it does in labor relations in Germany. But the general consensus-based approach with strong collectives on both sides is similar. I assume that most of the European social democracies have similar institutions in place.

[Admiral Yi]

Your point being? I thought we were talking unions in general? Most people work in service industries and often don't face as much foreign competition as a manufacturer of durable goods.

I thought you were making the point that since German unions are  industry-wide their actions won't impact competitiveness.

Whereas the German autoworkers union  could theoretically price domestic manufacturers out of the market.

[Zanza]

Your point being? I thought we were talking unions in general? Most people work in service industries and often don't face as much foreign competition as a manufacturer of durable goods.

I thought you were making the point that since German unions are  industry-wide their actions won't impact competitiveness.

Whereas the German autoworkers union  could theoretically price domestic manufacturers out of the market.

That was one of my points. When most of your competitors are domestic, having the same kind of collective bargaining agreement for the entire industry doesn't impact competitiveness versus your domestic competitors. Considering how Germany is exposed more to international trade than the USA is as a share of each countries' economy, this should even be more true for the USA than it is for Germany. The USA has a huge service sector and it is there where you see lots of poorly paid jobs and people that have very little bargaining power versus their often big employers (think Walmart). That's where unionization might actually make a difference in the American economy. It's not like you can easily outsource all the burger flippers, cashiers and waiters to overseas, so they wouldn't lose competitiveness if their entire industry sector would get better work conditions through unionization. That said, it's exactly this sector that has the weakest unions in Germany as well and the most miserable working conditions. Maybe it is just inherent in the industry.

My other point was that because the collectives on the other side are so big, it limits union power. The autoworkers are organized in a union that faces the entire "metal" industry in Germany. That's like 8% of the workforce and probably like 10% of GDP. The union is strong and can hurt the employers, but it isn't strong enough to destroy the entire "metal" sector of industry in Germany. It can't ever strike long enough for that.