The Off Topic Topic

[Syt]

Tell me how German foreign policy has improved with Merkel.
Like most countries in Europe, foreign policy is a fundamental cross-aisle thing between the big parties. An inheritance from the Cold War, mostly, but still true. The only significant change in German foreign policy happened during Willy Brandt's chancellorship.

Not strictly on topic, but I found this interesting:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/conflict-with-russia-raises-buried-questions-of-german-identity-a-963014.html

It's correct that there's a great division in German public debate when it comes to Ukraine. One only needs to look at comments from politicians, or the comments sections on news sites.

However, I disagree that this is born out of a hate-love for Russia. IMHO it's more born out of a deep disillusion about the West - a recent poll says that 1/3 of Germans have a negative opinion of Americans, and there's a lot of mistrust towards the USA, NATO and the EU who hold up lofty ideals but then (seemingly) fail to live up to them; instead they put the interests of big business first, no matter the cost, and that is why the tried to topple the regime in Kiev (and Libya, Egypt, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq ...), torture, unrightfully imprison people (CIA, Guantanamo), wage illegal wars against civilians (drone attacks in Pakistan and elsewhere), spy on their friends and allies (NSA), etc.

For those people the West and its media is just as aggressive and dishonest as Russia and its propaganda machine, if not more so, with Russia just trying to curb this foreign influence on its doorstep, and really, why didn't anyone see this coming? And at least Putin doesn't just roll over when Washington demands it! And he fights for his people! Etc. etc. You get the idea.

A somewhat moderate view in this climate would be, "Yes, Russia is acting hostile and aggressive in Ukraine. But really, the West started it with Euromaidan."

[HVC]

Time to loot

It's in your eggplant blood boy. Stealing that is.

the beach is too far to rub.

[Norgy]

Not strictly on topic, but I found this interesting:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/conflict-with-russia-raises-buried-questions-of-german-identity-a-963014.html

Wow that is pretty horrifying.

What a crock of shit.  The only thing the Germans and Russians have in common are a hatred of Jews.

I don't know, Germany only really became "Western" after WWII.  Before that it was "Mitteleuropa", halfway between Western democracy and Russian despotism.

That's downright wrong. Mitteleuropa is a term means "Central Europe". Nothing Eastern about that, unless you'd also count Austria and Bohemia as "eastern".
You are also forgetting the most liberal constitution in effect anywhere; The Weimar one.

[Ed Anger]

Time to loot

It's in your eggplant blood boy. Stealing that is.

the beach is too far to rub.

The bitch. 

HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN EVERYTHING?

[Sheilbh]

If it includes love affairs with dictatorships and embracing extremist propaganda I would find it rather disheartening.  And why wouldn't it?  Those were its hallmarks before.

No it doesn't. Or I'm talking about something else. Central Europe always used to be quite a fraught term. There was a large argument between whether it was a liberal dream of German and Austrian ruled Mitteleuropa while Czech liberals wanted a 'Stredni Evropa'. But as a cultural zone it did definitely exist. Now I think Germans use the more neutral term 'central Europe' too.

Then you had the Cold War and the entire region ended up solidly Eastern. I think it's great that the Czechs and the Poles and the Slovaks have agency again and are busy recreating this idea politically and culturally. I love that they're making the point that they're not Eastern European and have never been Eastern European, except for 50 years when they were forced into it.

Germany's half-in, they get invited to the official dos, but they're not members. I think Vaclav Havel described Germany as a country with one foot in Central Europe.

[Ed Anger]

Uh oh. There are a bunch of PAAS egg coloring kits on the kitchen table. The house is gonna smell this weekend. 

[Josquius]

The trouble is if the Poles, Czechs and Slovaks are central Europe then that leaves eastern Europe as just the Baltics and shit countries.

[derspiess]

Uh oh. There are a bunch of PAAS egg coloring kits on the kitchen table. The house is gonna smell this weekend. 

We outsourced egg coloring to my parents.  And they got smart this year & used fake eggs instead of real ones.  So I don't have to put them in my fridge & pretend I'm going to eat them.

[Queequeg]

[Norgy]

The trouble is if the Poles, Czechs and Slovaks are central Europe then that leaves eastern Europe as just the Baltics and shit countries.

The Baltics are Nordic. The Danes spread Christianity with a wee bit of coercion there. Then the Danes and Swedes fought over them repeatedly.

[Queequeg]

The trouble is if the Poles, Czechs and Slovaks are central Europe then that leaves eastern Europe as just the Baltics and shit countries.

Ukraine, Belarus and Russia might be "shitty" but it is hard to argue that they are a georaphical rump.

[Norgy]

Russia is not Europe. And never will be.

[Zanza]

No it doesn't. Or I'm talking about something else. Central Europe always used to be quite a fraught term. There was a large argument between whether it was a liberal dream of German and Austrian ruled Mitteleuropa while Czech liberals wanted a 'Stredni Evropa'. But as a cultural zone it did definitely exist. Now I think Germans use the more neutral term 'central Europe' too.

Then you had the Cold War and the entire region ended up solidly Eastern. I think it's great that the Czechs and the Poles and the Slovaks have agency again and are busy recreating this idea politically and culturally. I love that they're making the point that they're not Eastern European and have never been Eastern European, except for 50 years when they were forced into it.

Germany's half-in, they get invited to the official dos, but they're not members. I think Vaclav Havel described Germany as a country with one foot in Central Europe.

Germany considers itself, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Austria, Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia and the Baltic states as Central Europe.



The colors indicate the countries belonging to each region, the lines indicate where the cultural border is seen.

[Norgy]

You still have a few plans drawn up for Europe, don't you? Bloody Germans. 

[Zanza]

If anything, I think our government is fairly clueless what it wants to achieve in Europe. This has been fairly visible during e.g. the Euro or Ukrainian crises. They don't seem to think beyond petty domestic issues and maximizing exports. So lack of strategy seems to be the problem.

We could boldly lead on stuff like banking union, single market for services, energy diversification, even defense integration and many other issues. I think we would easily find eager partners for lots of initiatives in Europe, but with German passivity, not much is happening.