The Off Topic Topic

[Threviel]

Although accusations of racism are easy to throw out I don't necessarily think that's the main reason to be anti-immigration. There's a plethora of other valid reasons, economical, social and so on. All of which the general population has noticed, but it's been totally unacceptable to have a public discourse on it due to hysterical accusations of racism at the mere mention of issues with immigration. That's the Swedish 1995-2018 experience at least.

That it took so long for the brown scum to enter parliament and that they had to get rid of their racist (at least outwardly) views to do it is a good clue that Swedes are not generally that racist and that racism in itself is of a major issue.

[garbon]

Ah yes, "brown scum" a non-racist retort.

[Syt]

Ah yes, "brown scum" a non-racist retort.

I think Threviel was referring to fascists, not migrants.

[Richard Hakluyt]

A good example of lost in translation.

[garbon]

Ah yes, "brown scum" a non-racist retort.

I think Threviel was referring to fascists, not migrants.

Got it. Apologies!

[Threviel]

Yeah, the colour of the racists (ant leas colloquially around here) is brown, inherited from a certain German group.

That's what I mean, trying to find things that can be claimed to be racist is just stupid. Being called out for being racist because I called racists scum is dumb, really dumb. That kind of shit is why we have the racist parties growing, can't have an adult discussion on immigration without shrill hysterics.

[garbon]

So then this would be similar to saying French voters are not racist when they vote for Le Pen as moderated their most egregious racist views?

[garbon]

Yeah, the colour of the racists (ant leas colloquially around here) is brown, inherited from a certain German group.

That's what I mean, trying to find things that can be claimed to be racist is just stupid. Being called out for being racist because I called racists scum is dumb, really dumb. That kind of shit is why we have the racist parties growing, can't have an adult discussion on immigration without shrill hysterics.

I don't think you are racist because you called racists scum. I have apologised for that misunderstanding.

[Threviel]

I'm not well versed in French internal politics, but if it mirrors ours here it's probably a result of FN being the only party to talk about immigration problems for decades giving them legitimacy on the issue combined with them mellowing out, removing their obvious extremists and taking populist views on other issues to be electable.

And some racism, of course racism plays a part, but I suspect that part is vastly over blown. I'd love to see some data on it though, I have not been able to find any good data on it for Swedish voters at least.

If racism was the main motivator we would expect to see the inverse popularity curve of anti-immigration parties, since racism is more prevalent in societies with few immigrants. They ought to have been more popular the fewer immigrants there were and that's not what we are seeing.

[Threviel]

I don't think you are racist because you called racists scum. I have apologised for that misunderstanding.

Thank you and sorry if I came on too hard about it.

It is a good example though of why it is very difficult to discuss immigration. Lots of feelings and lots of bad faith from all sides.

[garbon]

I'm not well versed in French internal politics, but if it mirrors ours here it's probably a result of FN being the only party to talk about immigration problems for decades giving them legitimacy on the issue combined with them mellowing out, removing their obvious extremists and taking populist views on other issues to be electable.

And some racism, of course racism plays a part, but I suspect that part is vastly over blown. I'd love to see some data on it though, I have not been able to find any good data on it for Swedish voters at least.

If racism was the main motivator we would expect to see the inverse popularity curve of anti-immigration parties, since racism is more prevalent in societies with few immigrants. They ought to have been more popular the fewer immigrants there were and that's not what we are seeing.

I would suggest most people engaging in racist thought/acting on said thoughts/speech would not self identify as racist.

[Threviel]

Yeah, it's very complicated. And there's also some very valid criticisms on the behaviour of certain immigrant groups (honour violence, forced marriages, feminism, racism, anti-semitism and so on) that is mistaken for racism. The problem cuts both ways. Similar to the anti-semitism that goes on right now.

There needs to be some kind of adult discussion on it, not baseless accusations going back and forth.

[garbon]

Yeah, it's very complicated. And there's also some very valid criticisms on the behaviour of certain immigrant groups (honour violence, forced marriages, feminism, racism, anti-semitism and so on) that is mistaken for racism. The problem cuts both ways. Similar to the anti-semitism that goes on right now.

There needs to be some kind of adult discussion on it, not baseless accusations going back and forth.

I would look back at your initial post and see how that's not a goof example of moderating the discussion.

[Josquius]

Yeah, it's very complicated. And there's also some very valid criticisms on the behaviour of certain immigrant groups (honour violence, forced marriages, feminism, racism, anti-semitism and so on) that is mistaken for racism. The problem cuts both ways. Similar to the anti-semitism that goes on right now.

There needs to be some kind of adult discussion on it, not baseless accusations going back and forth.

 I don't think these criticisms are necessarily mistaken for racism.

You get lots of groups out there criticising this sort of thing and not being called out as racists as they're clearly doing it from a place of wanting to help the people in question. See the big campaign against female circumcision for instance.

However, you also get a lot of racists who pretend to care about these things because it gives them a big stick to beat up their favourite scapegoats with.

[Tamas]

It's tricky a bit. If Sweden let in tens of thousands of rural Hungarians who congregated in the same population centres and turned them into the 40s-style regressive place they are used to inhabit I don't think people would have trouble calling them out for their cultural backwardness. But if Eritreans do the same you can't do it anymore because if you do you find yourself on the same platform with some very nasty people.