The Off Topic Topic

[Capetan Mihali]

Maybe this discussion should be it's be its own thread?

It's my fault, I broke my promise to Mongers to stop responding to the deluge of posts authored by our Languish ADL, I'm sorry.  The discussion is pointless, and I guess it's my responsibility to end it, since I'm the only one arguing the Palestinian cause. 

But some of the posts are just too provocative and I'm weak, so I can't help responding.  I'll try to drop it.  I'll note that my commemoration of Norway's constitutional independence hasn't seemed to attract the same onslaught.

[DGuller]

Context is such a tricky concept to get a grasp on.

[DGuller]

In a way, that baby bison story was probably more on point than anything mentioned here in the last few pages.  Good intentions are a dangerous thing when coupled with catastrophically bad judgment.

[garbon]

In a way, that baby bison story was probably more on point than anything mentioned here in the last few pages.  Good intentions are a dangerous thing when coupled with catastrophically bad judgment.

Though isn't it possible that the baby bison had already been rejected by its mother when it was found alone?

[Tamas]

only to find that they now lived in an ethno-nationalist state that was not of their ethnicity or nation.

Happened to at least 3 million Hungarians in the middle of Europe in 1920 and nobody gave a damn. Even today it is illegal to get a second citizenship if you are in Slovakia, to stop the Hungarian minority from doing so. So cry me a river.

I could also probably bring 3 dozen other examples from Africa and Asia if I bothered to use Google for ten minutes. But nobody cares. This particular ethnic issue is VERY IMPORTANT because it involves jews.

[CountDeMoney]

The discussion is pointless, and I guess it's my responsibility to end it, since I'm the only one arguing the Palestinian cause.

The Arab world certainly isn't.  I have always found it interesting how the Palestinians' strongest advocates are always non-Arabs, and the one country that looks after them the most happens to be Israel itself. 
All those smuggled weapons from Iran do wonders for children's nutrition and literacy rates in Gaza.

[Duque de Bragança]

But some of the posts are just too provocative and I'm weak, so I can't help responding.  I'll try to drop it.  I'll note that my commemoration of Norway's constitutional independence hasn't seemed to attract the same onslaught.

All right. Judging by the yet not so fresh from the boat imported Green (Khmer) nutcase from Norway (Eva Joly) advocating a national holiday in French politics à la Norway instead of the July 14th we all know in France, I'm not too keen on celebrating a PC national holiday. 
But then, French Greens are a disgrace in general.

PS: I must say i like the way colonies were redefined ad hoc earlier in the thread.

[Razgovory]

Those events happened several decades earlier and aren't still creeping forward.
And all the relevant put upon people's still have a country.

The creation of Israel happened several decades ago as well, and there are plenty of Arab states in existence.  Seems to me the real cause for Palestinian suffering is the unwillingness for various Arab states to absorb refugees.

[Malthus]

]
I have no interest in "excusing" Israeli actions; I'm pointing out that there is some sort of perspective here. Focusing on the doings of a tiny country on the other side of the world is just an oddity. Sure, thy do and have done some bad things; but hardly different from (say) most other nations on the planet.

Sure, Israel is a nation founded along ethno-nationalist principles. That sucks. But then, so are most other nations world-wide. It simply strikes me as bizarre in the extreme to single out one of the multitude and only criticize that one. It's like a pacifist who only criticizes Belgium for having an army.

If your claim is that Israel right now is as "bad" as Canada 20 years ago - well, I was an adult in Canada 20 years ago; that's not exactly ancient history.

What other country was founded on the ethno-nationalist principles of non-native arrivals in the last 70 years?

Well, that excludes Israel - while many immigrated after '48, there had been Jews living there for some time before that (including some who had ancestors living there for centuries).

If the real question is 'has any country displaced 'native' communities and replaced them with 'non-native' immigrants in the name of creating an ethno-nationalist state', the answer is - Lots.

To give but one example, pretty well every state in eastern Europe had its borders moved after WW2, displacing the locals in the "new areas" and replacing then with "non-native arrivals".

My mother in law was once one of them. As a kid, the Soviets moved her (an ethnic Ukrainian) to a part of what is now "Ukraine" that used to be "Poland" and that was settled, for centuries, by ethnic Germans. She emigrated to Canada in the '50s, but some of her relations are still there. One day, in the '70s, some people arrived at their village: they were German tourists, who had miraculously survived the flight west, come to revisit the houses they grew up in!

Of course, no-one cares about that. Wonder why? Well, perhaps it is this: in every other such case, pretty well, the population eventually adapted (indeed, no doubt these particular West Germans would rather be in West Germany than in Ukraine). In the case of the Palestinians - well, no such adaptation took place.

[The Minsky Moment]

"making choices about how many Palestinian lives should be ruined."  By choosing not to buy a particular brand of seltzer machine.  Rather than, say, launching a massive bombardment on a captive population every few years. I will always remember this line, Minsky. Really, you're too much.

It's a curious defense of a particular course of action to highlight its ineffectiveness and irrelevance. 
You are correct that a choice of seltzer machine doesn't have any impact on Israeli military action.  It just cost of bunch of completely innocent people their jobs. 

[Jacob]

Those events happened several decades earlier and aren't still creeping forward.
And all the relevant put upon people's still have a country.

I guess the moral of the story is that ethnic cleansing is like pulling the band-aid off:  you have to do it once, quickly, and completely.  That way it's going to be a sad thing that happened in the past, and not an ongoing controversy.  I'm sure some people are learning the lesson for the future.

That makes it sound like your argument is that yes Israel does engaged in ethnic cleansing, but that they are being unfairly blamed because of some detail in how they are going about it.

That's not that strong an argument, to be honest.

[The Minsky Moment]

Bringing things back off topic, for those who are willing to court the ignominy of owning a sodastream, I'm a fan of these guys: http://pittsburghsodapop.com/

[DGuller]

Those events happened several decades earlier and aren't still creeping forward.
And all the relevant put upon people's still have a country.

I guess the moral of the story is that ethnic cleansing is like pulling the band-aid off:  you have to do it once, quickly, and completely.  That way it's going to be a sad thing that happened in the past, and not an ongoing controversy.  I'm sure some people are learning the lesson for the future.

That makes it sound like your argument is that yes Israel does engaged in ethnic cleansing, but that they are being unfairly blamed because of some detail in how they are going about it.

That's not that strong an argument, to be honest.

I don't think anyone denies that some population transfer has occurred during the independence war.    

What's a tragic irony is that Israel would be less harassed by liberals today if they were as reprehensible as they are accused of being, and did something like expel all Arabs from Palestine back when everyone was into population transfers.  It's tragic because it's teaching the wrong historic lessons (from a moral perspective anyway).

[Tamas]

this sodastream stuff looks ridicoulously overpriced.

Back in the 80s, and the 90s for a while, you could get one of these in Hungary:


And you bough the CO2 in these "cartridges":



It was a totally everyday stuff to buy at groceries as I recall, instead of the middle-class ripoff this Sodapop appears to be.

[Josquius]

The thing that right wingers don't get about Israel is that because it is a democracy we hold it to higher standards than other regimes.
Of course North Korea for one obvious example is worse.But protesting against them isn't going to accomplish anything. They don't care how the west views them. Israel does.
The world isn't a black and white place. Often it's the less nasty bad guys that you should be focusing your attention on as they're the ones you actually stand a chance of changing.