The Off Topic Topic

[Admiral Yi]

One of my neighbors, a millenial in a group house, left the bedside light on while going to town with his squeeze.  Cast a bigass shadow on his curtain.  It was like a porno version of that Italian flick about the little kid who befriends the projectionist. 

Must have been the same chick over a couple days ago.  Very loud that time, not so much this time.

[Capetan Mihali]

No, they don't have any Palestinians anymore, or at least not any from occupied territories.  The last ones were let go in February because they were denied work permits.  Sodastream apparently hired local Bedouins instead.  Congrats on the glorious victory. 

Palestinians don't just live in the Occupied Territories; Israel created the distinction between "Israeli Arabs" -- who *are* Palestinians, and include Bedouin, Druze, etc. -- and "Palestinians," who are supposed to exist in the Occupied Territories.

Nobody said it's a glorious victory.  But it's a step in the direction of influencing Israeli policy in the limited way we as individuals can.

[Capetan Mihali]

]
I have no interest in "excusing" Israeli actions; I'm pointing out that there is some sort of perspective here. Focusing on the doings of a tiny country on the other side of the world is just an oddity. Sure, thy do and have done some bad things; but hardly different from (say) most other nations on the planet.

Sure, Israel is a nation founded along ethno-nationalist principles. That sucks. But then, so are most other nations world-wide. It simply strikes me as bizarre in the extreme to single out one of the multitude and only criticize that one. It's like a pacifist who only criticizes Belgium for having an army.

If your claim is that Israel right now is as "bad" as Canada 20 years ago - well, I was an adult in Canada 20 years ago; that's not exactly ancient history.

What other country was founded on the ethno-nationalist principles of non-native arrivals in the last 70 years? 

[Capetan Mihali]

Great.  A lot of terrible things happened after WWI and WWII.  They were tragedies.  The difference with Palestine is that it is an ongoing tragedy.

How are all the others not "ongoing tragedies"? The land was lost and with it all the possessions; the people from ancient communities were (and remain) uprooted and sent to live in other countries far from their ancestral homes.

Is Greece still trying to occupy Smyrna?  Are the Italians building Cham settlements in Epirus?

[CountDeMoney]

Is Greece still trying to occupy Smyrna?  Are the Italians building Cham settlements in Epirus?

Are the Romans building aqueducts at Aqueduct?  I got the horse right here, the name is Paul Revere.

[Razgovory]

Great.  A lot of terrible things happened after WWI and WWII.  They were tragedies.  The difference with Palestine is that it is an ongoing tragedy.

How are all the others not "ongoing tragedies"? The land was lost and with it all the possessions; the people from ancient communities were (and remain) uprooted and sent to live in other countries far from their ancestral homes.

Is Greece still trying to occupy Smyrna?  Are the Italians building Cham settlements in Epirus?

I think the Russians still occupy East Prussia, Poland still occupies Silesia, Belorussia still has a big chunk of Poland. These territorial changes and relocations occurred around the same time as the "disaster" of a Jewish state coming into existence.  Other countries and peoples have managed to adjust.  What force prevents the Palestinians from accepting the results of a war they started?

[jimmy olsen]

There are some musicians where I really wonder "so just who is their demographic?"
Elton John for instance.
Super big star.
But just who are his fans

Elton John is great.

[The Minsky Moment]

it's a win for the anti-settlement group because it gets an israeli factory out of an israeli settlement. the number of lost jobs (which don't seem stellar in the first place) is pretty negligible

Not to single out LaCroix but this is the attitude I referred to earlier.  Full time manufacturing jobs in a production facility may seem "not stellar" to a well educated BDS activist in the West, but those kinds of jobs look pretty damn good in the Middle East.  Several hundred jobs may seem "negligible" to Western activists and a small price to pay for a "win" but it has a real life impact on hundreds of actual human beings. 

Sodastream as a company doesn't give a rat's ass about government settlement policy - they have to take the world as they find it.  Whether they employ West Bank Palestinian Arabs or Negev Bedouins doesn't make much difference.  And it really makes no difference to Israeli settlers, who are completely unaffected by that choice.  Israel the state certainly doesn't care where the factory is.  So at the end of the day, what we have is western activists making choices about how many Palestinian lives should be ruined to purchase their symbolic victory.

[Josquius]

Great.  A lot of terrible things happened after WWI and WWII.  They were tragedies.  The difference with Palestine is that it is an ongoing tragedy.

How are all the others not "ongoing tragedies"? The land was lost and with it all the possessions; the people from ancient communities were (and remain) uprooted and sent to live in other countries far from their ancestral homes.

Is Greece still trying to occupy Smyrna?  Are the Italians building Cham settlements in Epirus?

I think the Russians still occupy East Prussia, Poland still occupies Silesia, Belorussia still has a big chunk of Poland. These territorial changes and relocations occurred around the same time as the "disaster" of a Jewish state coming into existence.  Other countries and peoples have managed to adjust.  What force prevents the Palestinians from accepting the results of a war they started?

Those events happened several decades earlier and aren't still creeping forward.
And all the relevant put upon people's still have a country.

[Capetan Mihali]

it's a win for the anti-settlement group because it gets an israeli factory out of an israeli settlement. the number of lost jobs (which don't seem stellar in the first place) is pretty negligible

Not to single out LaCroix but this is the attitude I referred to earlier.  Full time manufacturing jobs in a production facility may seem "not stellar" to a well educated BDS activist in the West, but those kinds of jobs look pretty damn good in the Middle East.  Several hundred jobs may seem "negligible" to Western activists and a small price to pay for a "win" but it has a real life impact on hundreds of actual human beings. 

Sodastream as a company doesn't give a rat's ass about government settlement policy - they have to take the world as they find it.  Whether they employ West Bank Palestinian Arabs or Negev Bedouins doesn't make much difference.  And it really makes no difference to Israeli settlers, who are completely unaffected by that choice.  Israel the state certainly doesn't care where the factory is.  So at the end of the day, what we have is western activists making choices about how many Palestinian lives should be ruined to purchase their symbolic victory.

"making choices about how many Palestinian lives should be ruined."  By choosing not to buy a particular brand of seltzer machine.  Rather than, say, launching a massive bombardment on a captive population every few years. I will always remember this line, Minsky. Really, you're too much.  

[DGuller]

Those events happened several decades earlier and aren't still creeping forward.
And all the relevant put upon people's still have a country.

I guess the moral of the story is that ethnic cleansing is like pulling the band-aid off:  you have to do it once, quickly, and completely.  That way it's going to be a sad thing that happened in the past, and not an ongoing controversy.  I'm sure some people are learning the lesson for the future.

[jimmy olsen]

Maybe this discussion should be it's be its own thread?

[Martinus]

Those events happened several decades earlier and aren't still creeping forward.
And all the relevant put upon people's still have a country.

I guess the moral of the story is that ethnic cleansing is like pulling the band-aid off:  you have to do it once, quickly, and completely.  That way it's going to be a sad thing that happened in the past, and not an ongoing controversy.  I'm sure some people are learning the lesson for the future.

Pretty much. Poland has done it after WWII and we are pretty much trouble-free when it comes to ethnic minorities.

[Martinus]

Maybe this discussion should be it's be its own thread?

Preferably one on a different website.

[Capetan Mihali]

Those events happened several decades earlier and aren't still creeping forward.
And all the relevant put upon people's still have a country.

I guess the moral of the story is that ethnic cleansing is like pulling the band-aid off:  you have to do it once, quickly, and completely.  That way it's going to be a sad thing that happened in the past, and not an ongoing controversy.  I'm sure some people are learning the lesson for the future.

Yep, it's tough figuring out a way to ethnically cleanse a population while still presenting yourself as a morally sound democratic state.  I really feel for the decision makers tasked with accomplishing that noble goal.