The Off Topic Topic

[alfred russel]

I once talked to a palestinian in east jerusalem who explained his personal situation (he said he was crossing the wall illegally to work) and the general situation in the silwan neighborhood. Very sympathetic story.

The next day I spoke to a jewish person just outside of silwan who said her point of view regarding silwan. She also seemed quite compelling.

100% misalignment between the two. No common ground for a compromise.

[Malthus]

Seriously, guys can't you just kiss and make up, agree to disagree or maybe file away this grudge and bring it up again in 2-3 years time (t'Languish way) ?

Since this grudge really seems to be all of Languish (who's willing to post anything about it, at least) vs. myself, and since anything I post that's critical of Zionism or so much as mentions the Palestinian plight seems to set off a multi-page wave of argument, yes, I'm willing to stop hogging the limelight and drop the issue.

EDIT:  I just want to emphasize that my posting on this is really far from just trying to set up a Languish debate/vitriolic back-and-forth.  It's the product of a frankly painful 15-year transformation in my understanding of Israel as I read the newspaper, watched television, listened to the radio (especially during the 2008-9 Gaza attack, and got to know real life Palestinians.  It was painful to lose any sense of identification with Israel, to lose any feeling of warmth towards that little resilient democracy surrounded by hateful enemies bent on pushing them into the sea, to know that my grandparents would be turning in their graves if they knew my current views.  The whole thing makes me very sad and leaves me with a bitter taste, honestly, not righteously angry or disingenuously propagandistic per DGuller.   

I went from being (comparatively) a rabid Israel-supporter back during the Second Intifada (I remember arguing with my someone in support of some Israeli attack after she made some mild criticism) -- to a liberal "these extremist settlers are the problem, and I do hope that wall they're building doesn't go too far, but I'm sure I share the Tel Aviv and Haifa point of view" -- to a "something is fundamentally wrong here but I wouldn't deny Israel's right to exist as Israel qua Israel" -- to my current position, which is flatly anti-Zionist.

It's also an issue that hits close to home.  I have a very close friend whose mother is a Palestinian who was forcibly evacuated from her East Jerusalem home during 1947-48, losing everything, and relocated elsewhere in Palestine, before her family left for Jordan after the Suez Crisis.  Her family home is now a parking garage. I have another close friend who is an "Israeli Arab."  Both from Christian families, incidentally.  And a smattering of friendly acquaintances from Palestine.  I didn't have that in 1999 or 2001 or 2003, but I'd known Israelis as real people since I was a little kid, taking violin lessons at the the JCC.

You remind me of a friend of mine, who was a somewhat rabid Trotskyite. She told me one day something like "you will never believe it, but I was once a really devout Catholic: I said my rosary every day, went to confession regularly, and parroted the official Vatican line on everything. Can you imagine that? And then one day I studied things, and came to a few realizations - and now look at how far from Catholicism I've gone: I think all religion is bunk, Catholicism included".

I said something non-committal, but I was thinking "you haven't really changed that much, you have just traded one type of absolute certainty for another". 

To my mind, that's why the conversation seems so one-sided: it isn't because you are sympathetic to Palestinians - it is because you are so absolutely one-sidedly certain you are right, you aren't willing to actually examine or discuss evidence; you only post slanted accounts, cannot engage in factual refutations or argument. You sound more like a convert to a cause than a debater.

[Habbaku]

to a "something is fundamentally wrong here but I wouldn't deny Israel's right to exist as Israel qua Israel" -- to my current position, which is flatly anti-Zionist.

By anti-Zionist in this sense, do you mean that you are against the existence of the state of Israel?  Of Israel as a "Jewish State"?  What is your desired end-game for that region?

[Barrister]

You remind me of a friend of mine, who was a somewhat rabid Trotskyite. She told me one day something like "you will never believe it, but I was once a really devout Catholic: I said my rosary every day, went to confession regularly, and parroted the official Vatican line on everything. Can you imagine that? And then one day I studied things, and came to a few realizations - and now look at how far from Catholicism I've gone: I think all religion is bunk, Catholicism included".

I said something non-committal, but I was thinking "you haven't really changed that much, you have just traded one type of absolute certainty for another". 

To my mind, that's why the conversation seems so one-sided: it isn't because you are sympathetic to Palestinians - it is because you are so absolutely one-sidedly certain you are right, you aren't willing to actually examine or discuss evidence; you only post slanted accounts, cannot engage in factual refutations or argument. You sound more like a convert to a cause than a debater.

Since I had just posted a comment that everyone was "very respectful" in this little debate, I feel I should point out that this is a pure ad hominem argument on your part Malthus.

[Razgovory]

You remind me of a friend of mine, who was a somewhat rabid Trotskyite. She told me one day something like "you will never believe it, but I was once a really devout Catholic: I said my rosary every day, went to confession regularly, and parroted the official Vatican line on everything. Can you imagine that? And then one day I studied things, and came to a few realizations - and now look at how far from Catholicism I've gone: I think all religion is bunk, Catholicism included".

I said something non-committal, but I was thinking "you haven't really changed that much, you have just traded one type of absolute certainty for another". 

To my mind, that's why the conversation seems so one-sided: it isn't because you are sympathetic to Palestinians - it is because you are so absolutely one-sidedly certain you are right, you aren't willing to actually examine or discuss evidence; you only post slanted accounts, cannot engage in factual refutations or argument. You sound more like a convert to a cause than a debater.

Is this the one you tried to seduce?

[The Minsky Moment]

I once talked to a palestinian in east jerusalem who explained his personal situation (he said he was crossing the wall illegally to work) and the general situation in the silwan neighborhood. Very sympathetic story.

The next day I spoke to a jewish person just outside of silwan who said her point of view regarding silwan. She also seemed quite compelling.

100% misalignment between the two. No common ground for a compromise.

It doesn't help that the current Israeli government is an international disgrace.  The Israeli variant of the Putinization of politics increasingly common these days.  Fuels the "anti-Zionist" zealots, and makes it very hard to see a path where things get better.

[Martinus]

I don't understand the sentiment here Mihali.

You know this is a contentious topic that people have strong feelings about.  But as far as I can tell everyone has been very respectful in how they treated the topic.  What more do you actually want if you're posting something that's "critical of Zionism"?  What sort of response were you expecting (since I assume you weren't expecting "gosh I never thought of that - you're right!")?

I hardly feel persecuted, so I'm sorry if it came out that way.  (Though I'd go back over some of DG's posts to see if they qualify as "very respectful.") It's just that the topic, precisely because it's contentious (with a few posters in particular), results in a bunch of pages of argument where I'm the only one taking the Palestinian side in any capacity.  I enjoy it to an extent, but it does get tiresome.

What I really meant in responding to Mongers is that I was willing to accept his suggestion to shelve the issue for a while, since I don't want this obviously intractable disagreement to dominate the OTT and alienate other posters who have no desire to get involved, and want to talk about other stuff.

Languish, for all of its diversity, has a fairly specific mindset when it comes to politics.

[Martinus]

I once talked to a palestinian in east jerusalem who explained his personal situation (he said he was crossing the wall illegally to work) and the general situation in the silwan neighborhood. Very sympathetic story.

The next day I spoke to a jewish person just outside of silwan who said her point of view regarding silwan. She also seemed quite compelling.

100% misalignment between the two. No common ground for a compromise.

It doesn't help that the current Israeli government is an international disgrace.  The Israeli variant of the Putinization of politics increasingly common these days.  Fuels the "anti-Zionist" zealots, and makes it very hard to see a path where things get better.

Yeah, in that it is fairly similar to governments of Eastern Europe (like Poland or Ukraine).

[Malthus]

Since I had just posted a comment that everyone was "very respectful" in this little debate, I feel I should point out that this is a pure ad hominem argument on your part Malthus.

'You sound like a zealot, and aren't willing to argue facts' isn't a fallacy; it's a value judgment. I'm not saying his arguments are wrong because of this (which would be the ad hominem fallacy).  I'm explaining why his arguments haven't met with sympathy: it isn't because people dislike Palestinians.

[Malthus]

Is this the one you tried to seduce?

I must admit, you have an awesome memory. 

[Zanza]

It doesn't help that the current Israeli government is an international disgrace. 

At least one thing they have in common with their neighbors. 

[Martinus]

Is this the one you tried to seduce?

I must admit, you have an awesome memory. 

I think Raz has this kind of detective cork board in his basement, with every Languishite connected to everything else with red threads.

[Malthus]

Is this the one you tried to seduce?

I must admit, you have an awesome memory. 

I think Raz has this kind of detective cork board in his basement, with every Languishite connected to everything else with red threads.

It's nice to know someone cares. 

[The Minsky Moment]

Yeah, in that it is fairly similar to governments of Eastern Europe (like Poland or Ukraine).

One of the big issues in the last coalition talks was the "NGO bill" - a proposal to force NGOs to disclose foreign funding sources, which the current Justice Minister described as a prelude to "cracking down" on critical NGOs. (the same minister also promoted implementing a loyalty test for receiving arts funding).  It was foisted on the coalition to get the xenophobic and hardline pro-settler "Jewish Home Party" on board.  Very much in line with the PiS/Orban/Putin/Erdogan/etc. playbook. 

[Malthus]

Yeah, in that it is fairly similar to governments of Eastern Europe (like Poland or Ukraine).

One of the big issues in the last coalition talks was the "NGO bill" - a proposal to force NGOs to disclose foreign funding sources, which the current Justice Minister described as a prelude to "cracking down" on critical NGOs. (the same minister also promoted implementing a loyalty test for receiving arts funding).  It was foisted on the coalition to get the xenophobic and hardline pro-settler "Jewish Home Party" on board.  Very much in line with the PiS/Orban/Putin/Erdogan/etc. playbook.

Great. All we need now is Trump to join that club.