Will science prove the existence of parallel universes!?

Started by jimmy olsen, March 26, 2015, 12:42:30 AM

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Siege

#60
March 30, 2015, 10:12:26 AM
The "conflict" between Science and Religion is an old canard invneted by the left. There is no conflict. Most scientists were religious until recently, when the left took control of the educational system. How many scientists were burnt at the stake for scientific believes? How many? One? Giordan Bruno, who was burnt for being a member of what the Catholic church at the time considered an heresy, not exactly for science, but hey, science need heros and martyrs too.



"All men are created equal, then some become infantry."

"Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't."

"Laissez faire et laissez passer, le monde va de lui même!"

Valmy

#61
March 30, 2015, 10:14:32 AM
Quote from: Siege on March 30, 2015, 10:12:26 AM
How many scientists were burnt at the stake for scientific believes? How many? One? Giordan Bruno, who was burnt for being a member of what the Catholic church at the time considered an heresy, not exactly for science, but hey, science need heros and martyrs too.

That is something that I find annoying as well. I have certainly heard the anti-Theist going off on the 'thousands' of scientists religions have burned at the stake. Just shows that you do not need religion to believe in 'fairy tales'.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

grumbler

#62
March 30, 2015, 10:19:05 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 30, 2015, 09:53:04 AM
Because people are I am irrational, and more than that they are I am drawn to irrationality. So best to find irrational things that do not encourage anti-social values.

Fixed that for you.  The Romantic Era has been over for some 150 years.

QuoteIt may be a con, or it may be in earnest by people who want to be engaged in science and also keep their religious stuff. Or maybe both. And it is just a 'fairy tale' that only idiots believe this stuff, unfortunately. Irrational thinking is hardly absent from very intelligent people.

No one can pretend to be "involved in science" who follows ID doctrines, because ID doesn't use the scientific method.  It simply calls itself "scientific" as part of the fraud.  There is no conflict between people who want to "keep their religious stuff" and true science; religion only needs to engage in fraud when it wants to usurp the role of science in explaining the everyday world.  As far as irrationality being a feature of "intelligent" people, I don't buy it.  Irrational behavior is clearly counter-survival, and intelligent people want to survive.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

grumbler

#63
March 30, 2015, 10:23:57 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 30, 2015, 10:14:32 AM
Quote from: Siege on March 30, 2015, 10:12:26 AM
How many scientists were burnt at the stake for scientific believes? How many? One? Giordan Bruno, who was burnt for being a member of what the Catholic church at the time considered an heresy, not exactly for science, but hey, science need heros and martyrs too.

That is something that I find annoying as well. I have certainly heard the anti-Theist going off on the 'thousands' of scientists religions have burned at the stake. Just shows that you do not need religion to believe in 'fairy tales'.

Ah, is the Giordano Bruno myth the new "fairy tale?"  Or is the new "fairy tale" that there is a significant number of people "going off on the 'thousands' of scientists religions have burned at the stake?"  I am having trouble sorting out what is just being made up as a "fairy tale" for this thread, and what is being proposed as serious (maybe even "good") fairy tales.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Valmy

#64
March 30, 2015, 10:25:34 AM Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 10:30:06 AM by Valmy
Quote from: grumbler on March 30, 2015, 10:19:05 AM
Fixed that for you.  The Romantic Era has been over for some 150 years.

I certainly am speaking for myself here. I never claimed to be exceptional.

QuoteAs far as irrationality being a feature of "intelligent" people, I don't buy it.

It is a feature of all people. Intelligent people do not seem to be particularly immune. Let me just remind you that one of my favorite periods in history is the French Revolution where brilliant and rational people all showed how insane they can be.

QuoteIrrational behavior is clearly counter-survival, and intelligent people want to survive.

Everybody wants to survive. So?

Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Razgovory

#65
March 30, 2015, 10:31:26 AM
Quote from: grumbler on March 30, 2015, 10:23:57 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 30, 2015, 10:14:32 AM
Quote from: Siege on March 30, 2015, 10:12:26 AM
How many scientists were burnt at the stake for scientific believes? How many? One? Giordan Bruno, who was burnt for being a member of what the Catholic church at the time considered an heresy, not exactly for science, but hey, science need heros and martyrs too.

That is something that I find annoying as well. I have certainly heard the anti-Theist going off on the 'thousands' of scientists religions have burned at the stake. Just shows that you do not need religion to believe in 'fairy tales'.

Ah, is the Giordano Bruno myth the new "fairy tale?"  Or is the new "fairy tale" that there is a significant number of people "going off on the 'thousands' of scientists religions have burned at the stake?"  I am having trouble sorting out what is just being made up as a "fairy tale" for this thread, and what is being proposed as serious (maybe even "good") fairy tales.

He wasn't a scientist.  He was a wizard.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Valmy

#66
March 30, 2015, 10:33:00 AM
Quote from: grumbler on March 30, 2015, 10:23:57 AM
Ah, is the Giordano Bruno myth the new "fairy tale?"  Or is the new "fairy tale" that there is a significant number of people "going off on the 'thousands' of scientists religions have burned at the stake?"

There is a new fairy tale? :unsure: Well if there is one and it is new I never claimed to know what it was.

QuoteI am having trouble sorting out what is just being made up as a "fairy tale" for this thread, and what is being proposed as serious (maybe even "good") fairy tales.

I am having a hard time wondering where you got this distinction. I said people are irrational so it is beneficial to find irrational things that do not lead to anti-social behaviors, but man that is hard to find. I am not sure where the 'serious' or 'good' or 'just being made up' distinction is coming from.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

grumbler

#67
March 30, 2015, 10:38:30 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 30, 2015, 10:25:34 AM
It is a feature of all people. Intelligent people do not seem to be particularly immune. Let me just remind you that one of my favorite periods in history is the French Revolution where brilliant and rational people all showed how insane they can be.

The argument that irrationality is "a feature of all people" is meaningless noise.   It certainly isn't a dominant feature of all people.  Your reminder is a silly and irrelevant one.  What period of history is your favorite has no bearing on the argument, and no one who has actually studied the French Revolution would argue that it was full of "brilliant and rational people" engaged in "show[ing] how insane they can be."   

QuoteEverybody wants to survive. So?

So your assertion is silly.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Valmy

#68
March 30, 2015, 10:49:03 AM
Quote from: grumbler on March 30, 2015, 10:38:30 AM

The argument that irrationality is "a feature of all people" is meaningless noise.

I think it is a pretty obvious one. People are drawn to mystical thinking. I think this is a helpful thing to keep in mind. I mean people even try to get people interested in science by how magical and mind blowing it all seems rather than the joy of rational observation. That is a hard sell.

QuoteIt certainly isn't a dominant feature of all people.  Your reminder is a silly and irrelevant one.  What period of history is your favorite has no bearing on the argument, and no one who has actually studied the French Revolution would argue that it was full of "brilliant and rational people" engaged in "show[ing] how insane they can be."

We last I checked I am a person who studied it. I am pretty sure others have commented on this as well. But whatever, if it is not the case just saying it was not is not convincing to me.

Quote
So your assertion is silly.

Well I disagree.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

grumbler

#69
March 30, 2015, 10:50:44 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 30, 2015, 10:33:00 AM
Quote from: grumbler on March 30, 2015, 10:23:57 AM
Ah, is the Giordano Bruno myth the new "fairy tale?"  Or is the new "fairy tale" that there is a significant number of people "going off on the 'thousands' of scientists religions have burned at the stake?"

There is a new fairy tale? :unsure: Well if there is one and it is new I never claimed to know what it was.

I've never seen any evidence that any significant number of people claim that thousands of scientists have been burned at the stake by "religions."  That sounds like a "fairy tale," and a new one.

QuoteI am having a hard time wondering where you got this distinction. I said people are irrational so it is beneficial to find irrational things that do not lead to anti-social behaviors, but man that is hard to find. I am not sure where the 'serious' or 'good' or 'just being made up' distinction is coming from.

If you are inventing what you earlier called "good fairy tales" (meaning, I assume that they don't result in "anti-social behaviors"), then you must "seriously" want people to believe them (though for "irrational" reasons since "people are irrational").  Obviously, such invented fairy tales are "just made up."  I simply can't distinguish which ones you have "just made up" for this thread (like I presume, the "insane French Revolution") and which ones you are merely repeating, and I simply haven't heard before.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Razgovory

#70
March 30, 2015, 11:01:13 AM
If Grumbler was forced to debate Grumbler, would he ignore himself?  Discuss.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

grumbler

#71
March 30, 2015, 11:04:42 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 30, 2015, 10:49:03 AM
I think it is a pretty obvious one. People are drawn to mystical thinking. I think this is a helpful thing to keep in mind. I mean people even try to get people interested in science by how magical and mind blowing it all seems rather than the joy of rational observation. That is a hard sell.

Again, mere argument by assertion.  I don't think that people are drawn to mystical thinking at all.  I think they engage in it when confused or when the alternative threatens their egocentric belief in their own centrality to existence, but I think that people generally do the opposite of what you argue, and that they are drawn to logical explanations rather than irrational ones.  Almost no one believes that rain is the tears of the gods, or that leprosy is a punishment for immoral behavior.  If you were correct, the irrational explanations for those things would be far more popular than the rational ones.

And I have never seen anyone trying to sell science as "magical."  "Mind-blowing," yeah, because that's why scientists do science.  They do the observations to feed their mind-blowing theories, not for "the joy of rational observation" (which, i think, is a joy that you just invented!  :P).

QuoteWe last I checked I am a person who studied it. I am pretty sure others have commented on this as well. But whatever, if it is not the case just saying it was not is not convincing to me.

The last time I checked, what historical period you claim to have studied gave you no special ability to determine when people are "insane."  Simply calling behavior "insane" because you don't understand it (even though you claim to have studied it) is about as unconvincing as an argument can get.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

crazy canuck

#72
March 30, 2015, 11:08:21 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 30, 2015, 11:01:13 AM
If Grumbler was forced to debate Grumbler, would he ignore himself?  Discuss.

I will respond to you so we can hear his response.

The Minsky Moment

#73
March 30, 2015, 12:21:18 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 27, 2015, 03:33:46 PM
It's not a scientific concept.  It's a philosophical one.

It's neither.
It's a legal concept, devised to circumvent the Establishment Clause.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Siege

#74
March 30, 2015, 12:50:02 PM
Oh shit, a Minsky attack.


"All men are created equal, then some become infantry."

"Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't."

"Laissez faire et laissez passer, le monde va de lui même!"
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