The Case of the Missing Wine

[sbr]

Hey Otto, hurry to NJ all kinds of free stuff,maybe you could finish off your Xmas shopping



http://abcnews.go.com/US/jersey-highway-crash-sends-fedex-packages-flying-10/story?id=27610996

[dps]

Then tell your government to stop murdering them.

Is that still going on? I thought the market for baby seal fur was destroyed a while ago, and whatever seal hunt is still going on is primarily indigenous. I was under the impression that the days of drunken Newfies clubbing baby seals with wild abandon were gone.

... excuse me while I power up my google machine.

As if drunken Newfies really care what they hit with clubs.

[Jacob]

As if drunken Newfies really care what they hit with clubs.

You may have a point.

[OttoVonBismarck]

By American standards perhaps.  But most everywhere else in the civilized world if one knowingly takes the property of another for their own purpose it is theft or at the very least the tort of conversion.  I suppose its just peachy that some Americans think the statute of limitations is Fex Ex not picking up the package within an arbitrary period selected by the would be thief.

Well this is stuff that essentially fell into my property. If I found a gold bar in my yard I wouldn't have even made a good faith effort to find the rightful owner. I'd consider it a case of "too bad, so sad" for whomever was foolish enough to deposit gold bars on my land.

[garbon]

By American standards perhaps.  But most everywhere else in the civilized world if one knowingly takes the property of another for their own purpose it is theft or at the very least the tort of conversion.  I suppose its just peachy that some Americans think the statute of limitations is Fex Ex not picking up the package within an arbitrary period selected by the would be thief.

Well this is stuff that essentially fell into my property. If I found a gold bar in my yard I wouldn't have even made a good faith effort to find the rightful owner. I'd consider it a case of "too bad, so sad" for whomever was foolish enough to deposit gold bars on my land.

I'm confused, if you didn't think what you did was wrong, why didn't you fess up when the owner came looking?

[CountDeMoney]

Probably waiting for the right time to shoot him.  MAH GROUND

[Barrister]

By American standards perhaps.  But most everywhere else in the civilized world if one knowingly takes the property of another for their own purpose it is theft or at the very least the tort of conversion.  I suppose its just peachy that some Americans think the statute of limitations is Fex Ex not picking up the package within an arbitrary period selected by the would be thief.

Well this is stuff that essentially fell into my property. If I found a gold bar in my yard I wouldn't have even made a good faith effort to find the rightful owner. I'd consider it a case of "too bad, so sad" for whomever was foolish enough to deposit gold bars on my land.

I'm confused, if you didn't think what you did was wrong, why didn't you fess up when the owner came looking?

Yeah, that's the fatal flaw in OVB's moral reasoning.  If he truly thinks he did no wrong he should have no problem admitting it to the old man.

And Otto, I couldn't give a proper legal analysis to the wine since there were all kinds of bailment issues going on, but if you find a gold bar on your land, it is yours UNLESS the rightful owner shows up, in which case it still belongs to that person.

[CountDeMoney]

And Otto, I couldn't give a proper legal analysis to the wine since there were all kinds of bailment issues going on, but if you find a gold bar on your land, it is yours UNLESS the rightful owner shows up, in which case it still belongs to that person.

Pfft, that legal argument fails when challenged by the ironclad defense of "finders keepers, losers weepers", BB. 

[OttoVonBismarck]

The old man was never in any danger of being shot, he wasn't even trespassing since you're generally allowed to walk up to someone's door and knock on it.

Note BB, I never actually said I was morally justified in taking the wine. Just laid it out there. My primary reason for not fessing up was simple, embarrassment. It's pretty low on the etiquette scale to admit you've boorishly broken up some guy's wine box and started drinking it. If I hadn't opened it yet, I would've returned, but there was no way to do so and avoid the shame of the situation.

Morally I feel I was wrong not to return the 10 bottles and just deal with the opprobrium about the missing 2, but I don't feel it was unethical to have opened the box and drank the two bottles initially.

[Barrister]

The old man was never in any danger of being shot, he wasn't even trespassing since you're generally allowed to walk up to someone's door and knock on it.

Note BB, I never actually said I was morally justified in taking the wine. Just laid it out there. My primary reason for not fessing up was simple, embarrassment. It's pretty low on the etiquette scale to admit you've boorishly broken up some guy's wine box and started drinking it. If I hadn't opened it yet, I would've returned, but there was no way to do so and avoid the shame of the situation.

Morally I feel I was wrong not to return the 10 bottles and just deal with the opprobrium about the missing 2, but I don't feel it was unethical to have opened the box and drank the two bottles initially.

Fair enough.

[Martinus]

the tort of conversion

In Polish, the word "tort" means "torte" (or a fancy cake). So "tort of conversion" sounds like a magical consummable which would turn you Jewish upon eating.

[Martinus]

Then close the fucking clubs on zoning violations.

[Barrister]

the tort of conversion

In Polish, the word "tort" means "torte" (or a fancy cake). So "tort of conversion" sounds like a magical consummable which would turn you Jewish upon eating.

It has that meaning as well in English.  Trust me 1st year law students tend to giggle in Torts class until you get used to the legal meaning of the word.

[Martinus]

They don't murder the littlest fluffy baby seals, but once they get a bit older they're apparently considered fair game.

Let's hear it for seal adolescence.

Yeah. Imagine being a baby seal and hearing all those horror stories from the Canadian baby seal Holocaust survivors - then you get to adolescence, think you are out in the clear and BAM, some murdering Canadian lawyer clubs you to death.

[crazy canuck]

By American standards perhaps.  But most everywhere else in the civilized world if one knowingly takes the property of another for their own purpose it is theft or at the very least the tort of conversion.  I suppose its just peachy that some Americans think the statute of limitations is Fex Ex not picking up the package within an arbitrary period selected by the would be thief.

Well this is stuff that essentially fell into my property. If I found a gold bar in my yard I wouldn't have even made a good faith effort to find the rightful owner. I'd consider it a case of "too bad, so sad" for whomever was foolish enough to deposit gold bars on my land.

I'm confused, if you didn't think what you did was wrong, why didn't you fess up when the owner came looking?

Yeah, that's the fatal flaw in OVB's moral reasoning.  If he truly thinks he did no wrong he should have no problem admitting it to the old man.

And Otto, I couldn't give a proper legal analysis to the wine since there were all kinds of bailment issues going on, but if you find a gold bar on your land, it is yours UNLESS the rightful owner shows up, in which case it still belongs to that person.

The legal analysis is really very simple.  Otto had possession but no legal right to the wine.  He knew he was not in legal possession so he tried to return the wine to the rightful owner.  His patience for doing the right thing was limited and so he unlawfully took the wine for himself both by consuming part of it and unlawfully storing the rest of it.  He then lied to both the courier company and the rightful owner about what had happened.  There are a number of civil wrongs (including conversion and fraud) and potentially criminal acts (including theft and fraud) but what we for the purposes of Languish what we have learned is that Otto isn't trolling when he takes immoral positions.

If Otto had an honest belief in his somewhat deluded logic developed after the fact that he was lawfully in possession then we, and the law, would cut him some slack.  But it is apparent from his description he knew what he was doing was wrong and that is why he lied about what happened to the wine.  It is there we find the intent both for the criminal act of theft and the intentional tort of conversion.

That and lying is simply reprehensible conduct no matter what the excuse.