Ubik commited to mental institution, tries to sue everyone

[Neil]

problem with that is the potential for abuse. as well, many of those who don't want treatment may not need treatment. do we need to force treatment on a high functioning paranoid schizophrenic who poses no danger to others and is fully employed?

The current system leads to widespread abuse of mentally ill people.  Homeless crazies are frequently beaten, robbed, raped and murdered.  I'm curious what a high functioning paranoid schizophrenic would be like.  What sort of job do you envision him having?  Things like hallucinations tend to be deal breakers in most employment situations.

US Senator

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joni_Ernst

[Eddie Teach]

That's fairly trite.

Nobody goes there anymore; it's too crowded.


Jailing people without cause "for their own good" will almost never be preferable to the alternative.

[Razgovory]

That's fairly trite.

Nobody goes there anymore; it's too crowded.


Jailing people without cause "for their own good" will almost never be preferable to the alternative.

Fortunately nobody is suggesting that.

[CountDeMoney]

We can't just go around locking people up because we think they're weird. That's barbarian behavior. Hell, I even think Raz should be a free man.

Back in the day it was a lot easier for a police officer to write an emergency petition (1 page) on somebody than it was to write out a statement of charges (omg moar than 1 page!).  Saw that happen plenty of times; you don't want to go through the bullshit of booking for something silly like loitering or talking to themselves while pissing on a bus stop or what have you?  Just drop him off at the hospital ER, tell them you heard the guy say he wanted to hurt himself, fill out and sign the EP in about 90 seconds and you're off to Dunkin' Donuts, because America Runs On Dunkin' Donuts^tm.  Sometimes the evaluation determines the person's OK and cut lose from the hospital, sometimes he gets a 72 hour evaluation that really pisses him off.

It got so bad for the hospitals the PD had to change procedure, because the hospitals where getting swamped with EPs that weren't EPs, and it suddenly dawned on everybody that cops were abusing the system by dumping people off at the hospitals.  So when the rules were changed that officers where required to stay with the defendant/patient at the hospital since the defendant was technically in their custody until the hospital accepted them, the number of EPs really wound down.  Amazing what happens when you make cops do their jobs sometimes.

[Razgovory]

The price of Freedom is the continued suffering of others.

[Barrister]

I think most psychiatrists will tell you they can't help somebody who doesn't want to be helped.

Yeah, when they are talking about depression or alcohol abuse.  Not so much for things like Schizophrenia.

Indeed.

Schizophrenia has wonderful success rates with modern pharmaceuticals.

[Razgovory]

It can't be cured but can be managed.  However the difference between medication and the lack there of is like night and day.  I'm schizotypal, I've had enough of auditory hallucination and intrusive thoughts to know it's bad news, and I've certainly not seen the worst of it.

[MadImmortalMan]

However the difference between medication and the lack there of is like night and day.

That is so true. It's immense.

[Martinus]

We can't just go around locking people up because we think they're weird. That's barbarian behavior. Hell, I even think Raz should be a free man.

It is part of a broader question when should we subject people to a treatment of mental diseases when they themselves do not want it. When they are a threat to others - yes. When they are a threat to themselves only? It becomes much more muddy.

[Martinus]

However the difference between medication and the lack there of is like night and day.

That is so true. It's immense.

Yeah but it also leads to big personality changes and often depression. I have known two schizotypal people in my life and they said medication does very bad things to them as well (it just suppresses their schizophrenia symptoms), to the extent that extended use of it makes them think of suicide as a preferred option.

That's why I think that people who talk about medication as if it was a clear choice and not taking it was just silly do not know half of it. It is never that simple. To live a relatively bearable life, a schizotypal person has to go on and off medication in cycles. The problem is that it is never easy to time it right.

[MadImmortalMan]

It is part of a broader question when should we subject people to a treatment of mental diseases when they themselves do not want it. When they are a threat to others - yes. When they are a threat to themselves only? It becomes much more muddy.

Yes, you're right. Do we let people hurt themselves? It's tough but I don't see a moral way to intervene unless they are a threat to others.

[MadImmortalMan]

That's why I think that people who talk about medication as if it was a clear choice and not taking it was just silly do not know half of it. It is never that simple. To live a relatively bearable life, a schizotypal person has to go on and off medication in cycles. The problem is that it is never easy to time it right.

The one I am familiar with there was no on and off. It was drugs or death, basically. Just horrible.

[Martinus]

It is part of a broader question when should we subject people to a treatment of mental diseases when they themselves do not want it. When they are a threat to others - yes. When they are a threat to themselves only? It becomes much more muddy.

Yes, you're right. Do we let people hurt themselves? It's tough but I don't see a moral way to intervene unless they are a threat to others.

Yeah. I mean we let people hurt themselves by refusing life saving medical procedures in the name of their religious beliefs for example. I don't see why we should treat mass insanity that is religion differently from individual insanity.

[LaCroix]

I'm curious what a high functioning paranoid schizophrenic would be like.  What sort of job do you envision him having?  Things like hallucinations tend to be deal breakers in most employment situations.

for one example, call center. high-functioning is high-functioning. there are paranoid schizophrenics who are able to have steady employment.

[Martinus]

I know a lawyer who managed to practice as an environmental law expert with mild schizophrenia. Unfortunately, later it deteriorated and she had to stop.