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Was the American Civil War inevitible?

Started by jimmy olsen, October 30, 2014, 01:21:38 AM

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Assuming no changes earlier than 1815, was the American Civil War inevitable?

Yes
14 (58.3%)
No
10 (41.7%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Tonitrus

Quote from: viper37 on October 30, 2014, 08:52:47 PM
Quote from: PDH on October 30, 2014, 08:21:24 PM
Horrible butcher of his troops. 
Not unlike Grant, I think?

It wouldn't be unfair that the ACW in general was a horrible butcher of troops.

CountDeMoney

Quote from: Tonitrus on October 30, 2014, 08:53:49 PM
It wouldn't be unfair that the ACW in general was a horrible butcher of troops.

Yes, no need to single out Grant.  Lee, on the other hand, should be.

Tonitrus

Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2014, 09:01:04 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 30, 2014, 08:53:49 PM
It wouldn't be unfair that the ACW in general was a horrible butcher of troops.

Yes, no need to single out Grant.  Lee, on the other hand, should be.

Even the First Lady called Grant a butcher.  :sleep:

CountDeMoney

Quote from: Tonitrus on October 30, 2014, 09:02:56 PM
Even the First Lady called Grant a butcher.  :sleep:

I find it difficult to believe Lady Bird Johnson would go that far.

dps

Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2014, 09:01:04 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 30, 2014, 08:53:49 PM
It wouldn't be unfair that the ACW in general was a horrible butcher of troops.

Yes, no need to single out Grant.  Lee, on the other hand, should be.

The north had the burden of attacking, and the attacker (all else being equal) will suffer more losses.  Lee and other southern generals didn't have to attack--they just liked to (most of them).

Viking

Quote from: Tonitrus on October 30, 2014, 08:53:49 PM
Quote from: viper37 on October 30, 2014, 08:52:47 PM
Quote from: PDH on October 30, 2014, 08:21:24 PM
Horrible butcher of his troops. 
Not unlike Grant, I think?

It wouldn't be unfair that the ACW in general was a horrible butcher of troops.

No, he was one of the few which wasn't a butcher. He spent lives achieving a purpose unlike McClellan who spent fewer lives achieving nothing. Grant save the US a war in every generation.
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Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

jimmy olsen

Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 30, 2014, 08:53:42 PM
Quote from: viper37 on October 30, 2014, 08:52:47 PM
Not unlike Grant, I think?

I think Peedy is being ironic.
I believe Lee lost a slightly higher percentage of his troops, and given the strategic situation and disparity in resources he should have been more defensive.
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Tonitrus

#67
More defensive?  Wasn't he known to be referred to as the King of Spades.

Gettysburg was a glorious exception, sure.  But the thinking in taking a few risks to try and beat an overwhelming enemy is not too wrong-headed.  The more tactical decisions there obviously were, of course.

CountDeMoney

Quote from: dps on October 30, 2014, 09:25:24 PM
The north had the burden of attacking, and the attacker (all else being equal) will suffer more losses.  Lee and other southern generals didn't have to attack--they just liked to (most of them).

Lee is perhaps the man most responsible for the war lasting as long as it did.  If he had not chosen to be a traitor and instead became the commander of Federal forces, the war would've been over in the first year. 
In carrying the conflict out as long as it did, all that blood is on his hands, simply by the benefit of his superior generalship.  A lesser general would've resulted in a shorter war.

Valmy

Quote from: Lettow77 on October 30, 2014, 09:04:22 AM
Or these deep divisions could be allow to break on fault lines and create an amicable division.

Except the whole basis for the break was deep suspicion and rampant conspiracy theories.  The entire basis was conflict and hatred, how amicability could come from that I do not know.  You think good Northern Men were going to stand aside while the Slave Power Cabal destroyed the US to protect their un-American feudal privileges?

After John Brown it was coming.  Both sides were too entranched.  The notion that the South would have freed their slaves, gradually or otherwise, anytime soon was even more wishful thinking in 1860 than it had been in 1800. 
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Tonitrus

I wonder...if the South decided to stay in, but use the threat of secession more as a bargaining chip than a real threat...how much in concessions to their way of life/state's rights could they have squeezed out?   They'd certainly have been better off and much stronger than under Reconstruction, and still a very powerful political bloc inside the U.S.

But nope, they had to go all honey badger on everybody.

CountDeMoney

Quote from: Valmy on October 30, 2014, 09:50:47 PM
After John Brown it was coming. 

Praise Him.

And after Harper's Ferry, with every Southern governor wondering when and where the next John Brown would hit--since the South feared nothing more than slave uprisings, murdering their massas and running around all white women rapey and whatnot--the open transfer and funneling of arms from federal arsenals ramped up exponentially, and there was no going back.

Valmy

Quote from: Tonitrus on October 30, 2014, 09:53:10 PM
I wonder...if the South decided to stay in, but use the threat of secession more as a bargaining chip than a real threat...how much in concessions to their way of life/state's rights could they have squeezed out?

They had pretty much already done that.  The things they were intractable with and would not compromise on were things the north were also intractable with and would not compromise on.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Tonitrus

Lincoln sounded pretty tractable until the south wen't "GOFUK".

PDH

Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 30, 2014, 08:53:42 PM
Quote from: viper37 on October 30, 2014, 08:52:47 PM
Not unlike Grant, I think?

I think Peedy is being ironic.

No, Lee had a far higher casualty % than Grant.  He was overly offensive when he didn't need to be.  Iirc, he had about 1/3 more casualties in overall numbers than Grant - and that was with smaller armies that could ill afford it.  Lee was a butcher.
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