Berkely students petition to stop Bill Maher from delivering commencement addres

Started by Josephus, October 27, 2014, 06:06:45 PM

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The Minsky Moment

Quote from: Viking on October 29, 2014, 03:33:03 AM
The various groups of islamists do hate each other because the revolution eats it's children. But the case you are making here is analogous to saying that communist revolutions weren't about communist ideology because people have always been fighting. I don't accept that. Ideas and values do matter. When your self proclaimed ideology instructs you to fight, kill and oppress other regligious groups and you do just that then Ideology matters.

Revolution is central to Communism.  But the ideology of ISIL is not all at the core of Islam at all - the vast majority of Muslims and schools of Islamic theology and thought reject it.  If you were correct than Indonesia - the largest Muslim country on the planet - should be a murderous hell-hole.  But quite to the contrary.

I am not questioning the sincerity of what the individuals say anymore than I would question the sincerity of the 1970s era terrorists who claimed they were murdering Jews for the sake of the international proletariat.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Admiral Yi

Yet there have been, and still are, self proclaimed communists who do not engage in revolution.

Conquest and forced submission is as central to Islam as revolution is to communism.

The Brain

Science, Minsky-style: ionizing radiation doesn't cause cancer because there are people who have receieved high doses who haven't developed cancer.
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Josephus

People say that about Indonesia to Bill Maher (to go back to the OP), but Maher then rudely changes subject and talks about Arab Muslims.
Civis Romanus Sum<br /><br />"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." Jack Layton 1950-2011

Viking

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 29, 2014, 11:40:51 AM
Quote from: Viking on October 29, 2014, 03:33:03 AM
The various groups of islamists do hate each other because the revolution eats it's children. But the case you are making here is analogous to saying that communist revolutions weren't about communist ideology because people have always been fighting. I don't accept that. Ideas and values do matter. When your self proclaimed ideology instructs you to fight, kill and oppress other regligious groups and you do just that then Ideology matters.

Revolution is central to Communism.  But the ideology of ISIL is not all at the core of Islam at all - the vast majority of Muslims and schools of Islamic theology and thought reject it.  If you were correct than Indonesia - the largest Muslim country on the planet - should be a murderous hell-hole.  But quite to the contrary.

I am not questioning the sincerity of what the individuals say anymore than I would question the sincerity of the 1970s era terrorists who claimed they were murdering Jews for the sake of the international proletariat.

Yes, and for most the the past 20 years it has been. Aceh, East Timor, Borneo, Irian Jaya etc.



This was one of the things done. 10 years Jemaah Islamiah was not only bombing places where tourists spent their money it was murdering christians by burning their churches with people inside.

That is with the huge and amazing islamic civic organizations it has, unique in the islamic world, which primarily run schools which teach teh three "R"s and run mosques of the least radical type.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

The Brain

Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Viking

First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

crazy canuck

Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 29, 2014, 12:13:19 PM
Conquest and forced submission is as central to Islam as revolution is to communism.

Care to explain why you believe that to be true?

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 29, 2014, 12:13:19 PM
Conquest and forced submission is as central to Islam as revolution is to communism.

That is nonsense.  It is certainly no more central to Islam than to Christianity, which has a long history of conquest and forced conversion.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Admiral Yi

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 29, 2014, 01:12:29 PM
That is nonsense.  It is certainly no more central to Islam than to Christianity, which has a long history of conquest and forced conversion.

Christianity has one golden rule.  Islam has seven pillars of faith.  Can't get more central than that.

crazy canuck

Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 29, 2014, 01:14:23 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 29, 2014, 01:12:29 PM
That is nonsense.  It is certainly no more central to Islam than to Christianity, which has a long history of conquest and forced conversion.

Christianity has one golden rule.  Islam has seven pillars of faith.  Can't get more central than that.

You mean these seven?

"I believe in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, in the Day of Judgment, and that Fate good and bad is given by Allah, and the life after death"


Razgovory

Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 29, 2014, 01:14:23 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 29, 2014, 01:12:29 PM
That is nonsense.  It is certainly no more central to Islam than to Christianity, which has a long history of conquest and forced conversion.

Christianity has one golden rule.  Islam has seven pillars of faith.  Can't get more central than that.

Christianity does not have one "Golden rule".
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

frunk

Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 29, 2014, 01:14:23 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 29, 2014, 01:12:29 PM
That is nonsense.  It is certainly no more central to Islam than to Christianity, which has a long history of conquest and forced conversion.

Christianity has one golden rule.  Islam has seven pillars of faith.  Can't get more central than that.

The golden rule isn't originated by Christianity, and Islam even has its own formulation of it.

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: Viking on October 29, 2014, 12:29:35 PM
Yes, and for most the the past 20 years it has been. Aceh, East Timor, Borneo, Irian Jaya etc.

I assume you are joking.  These were regional separatist movements, not Islamic jihadists.

Quote10 years Jemaah Islamiah was not only bombing places where tourists spent their money it was murdering christians by burning their churches with people inside.

That is with the huge and amazing islamic civic organizations it has, unique in the islamic world, which primarily run schools which teach teh three "R"s and run mosques of the least radical type.

Exactly.  JI is a tiny organization with a few thousand adherents in a country of over 200 million people.  It is a drop in an ocean dominated by moderate, mainstream religious foundations.  Pointing to JI as illustrative is like making Fred Phelps or Anders Behring-Breivik exemplars of Christianity or Baruch Goldstein and exemplar of Judaism.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson