Soldier shot at National War Memorial in Ottawa

[garbon]

When I moved to Canada in '89 there were basically no visibly homeless people in Ottawa. A few years later, there was a significant change to how the programs on mental illness. Money were saved, and things like housing and in-patient treatment was drastically cut in favour of allegedly more efficient and humane out-patient treatment combined with a reliance on the existing social safety network.

Pretty much simultaneously with that, homeless people started appearing in the streets and they've been a regular feature of Canadian urban life since then in my observation.

Of course, that could just mean they were "out of sight, out of mind" in '89.

[Malthus]

When I moved to Canada in '89 there were basically no visibly homeless people in Ottawa. A few years later, there was a significant change to how the programs on mental illness. Money were saved, and things like housing and in-patient treatment was drastically cut in favour of allegedly more efficient and humane out-patient treatment combined with a reliance on the existing social safety network.

Pretty much simultaneously with that, homeless people started appearing in the streets and they've been a regular feature of Canadian urban life since then in my observation.

Of course, that could just mean they were "out of sight, out of mind" in '89.

That's just the problem. Solve our "homeless on the street" problem by - locking them up forever in cages.

Canada went the other way: a social consensus built, based on among other things some notable horror stories, that "lock 'em up" was inhumane and unethical. So the pendulum swung hard in the other direction.

[crazy canuck]

When I moved to Canada in '89 there were basically no visibly homeless people in Ottawa. A few years later, there was a significant change to how the programs on mental illness. Money were saved, and things like housing and in-patient treatment was drastically cut in favour of allegedly more efficient and humane out-patient treatment combined with a reliance on the existing social safety network.

Pretty much simultaneously with that, homeless people started appearing in the streets and they've been a regular feature of Canadian urban life since then in my observation.

Of course, that could just mean they were "out of sight, out of mind" in '89.

That's just the problem. Solve our "homeless on the street" problem by - locking them up forever in cages.

Canada went the other way: a social consensus built, based on among other things some notable horror stories, that "lock 'em up" was inhumane and unethical. So the pendulum swung hard in the other direction.

Agreed.   I suspect the real incentive for governments of the day to move toward "community care" was that it was supposed to reduce cost and it didnt hurt that everyone seemed to think it was a good idea.  The reality is that community care is non existent and that lack of care ends up costing tax payers a lot more on many levels. 

[Malthus]

Agreed.   I suspect the real incentive for governments of the day to move toward "community care" was that it was supposed to reduce cost and it didnt hurt that everyone seemed to think it was a good idea.  The reality is that community care is non existent and that lack of care ends up costing tax payers a lot more on many levels.

Heh, the roommate problems I observed were, I guess, experiments in "community care", and show why it doesn't work well.

As it turns out - dealing day to day with genuinely mentally ill people can be really, really difficult.

In both cases I know about, the ill people in question could, at times, present as normal - when taking their meds. Which, evidently, was an unpleasant ordeal for them, as they did not like doing it. In both cases, their familes had grown tired (or afraid) of them, and offered to pay their rent as long as they lived elsewhere. So they were able to get apartments in communal houses when "presenting" as normal, only to stop taking their meds, and stop presenting as normal.

In the one case I saw myself, the results were truly disturbing - the guy stalked around the place behaving bizzarely, openly carrying a large knife, and acting in a threatening manner (but not actually huring anyone). Also, he collected and hoarded junk in his basement apartment he lived in - so it was full of his stuff, like a maze. And it stank.

Cops were called, police took him away - but in a day or two he was back, having his meds forced on him, only now he was pissed off. Rinse and repeat a couple of times.

The end result was that the others living in the place nailed the connecting door to the basement this guy lived in shut. He used the window to get in and out of his apartment, which did not have a seperate entrance. The landlord was called, but what could he do? He was an elderly man who didn't speak much English. Last think he wanted was to confront a mentally ill person in his 20s who was behaving increasingly erratically.

Eventually, everyone else just moved out, leaving the elderly landlord to deal with the situation as best he might.

[viper37]

I wasn't sure about CdM, but I would be willing to bet good money on Berkut. It was still at Paradox.

IIRC, there as one thread where this surfaced, nuking Mecca, and it wasn't Berkut, nor anyone from Languish.  I just can't remember the name of the dude, but I think he was Scottish.  Or British (and it wasn't Top Cat).  And maybe one or two others.

One of the more vehement ones was Sean89 (or Sean[someothernumber]). He had an Irish EU avatar, but was from NYC IIRC.

well, it's been a while, but what I remember is there was more than one person claiming that, the exact words were to the effect of "if it comes to that, I'd support nuking Mecca" and it wasn't said by a usual troll, but rather by someone I/we generally respected and he later apologized for the statement.

[viper37]

The contortions made in Canada in order to avoid naming the elephant in the room are almost comical.   




G.

what is your solution?  Forbid the practice of Islam in an independant Quebec?
It's not immigration since both of these guys were born here.  One of them was 100% Pure-laine as of 1 year ago.

Short of death penalty for conversion to Islam, I fail to see how we would have prevented one of the attack.
The other one I'm still unsure, haven't read enough on Zehaf-Bibeau.  I know he spent some time in Calgary and Montreal, so maybe prehemptive jail for everyone living in big cities and practicing Islam, with no regards whatsover if they are a current threat since they can potentially be one in the future?

That way, we would have stopped for sure 2 recent attacks.  Meanwhile, 3000 other crimes could have safely been commited, since we'll have to let go of dangerous criminals due to our prisons being full.

[viper37]

   

• 
  I can only imagine what it was like to *be* that mentally ill person, or their families.
  

  Not easy.  You basically need to have one family member who dedicates all his/her free time to deal with them.  You need to get them to see the doctor, you need to raise your concern with the doctor, the doctor needs to understand your concerns and provide medication, then you need to work with social services to find him/her a decent place to live with some level of supervision appropriate, make sure they always take their medication.
  
  Ultimately, there are two groups of people for wich it will work fine:
  

   
• those who realize they are sick, understand their problem and cooperate with medical authorities to manage it.  Until they reach that point, it falls on someone close that will help them get there, with a lot of work and a lot of patience.
• those who are totally, 100% schyzophrenic and require immediate medical attention, at wich point you can call 911 and have an ambulance and police officers pick him up, bring him to the hospital, sedate him, have him see a psychiatrist, adjust his/her medication until he/she can be back to #1

If the mentally ill does not recognize his/her problem, believes it's everyone else who is problematic, and is not yet at #2, there is nothing to be done.  Police won't intervene, hospitals won't take them, pyschiatrist/pyschologist will put them on a neverending waiting list.  No matter how much support you try, if they don't recognize their problem, it's wasted.  If they aren't sick enough to warrant hospitalization and medication, they'll likely never get to #1.

[Valmy]

Yeah you just wait until they do something dangerous enough to go to prison, which have replaced the old asylums as where we store our mentally ill.

[Valmy]

Of course, that could just mean they were "out of sight, out of mind" in '89.

Oh and care for the mentally ill has been in our minds since '89?  They may be in sight but we still keep them far from our minds.

[Josephus]

When I moved to Canada in '89 there were basically no visibly homeless people in Ottawa. A few years later, there was a significant change to how the programs on mental illness. Money were saved, and things like housing and in-patient treatment was drastically cut in favour of allegedly more efficient and humane out-patient treatment combined with a reliance on the existing social safety network.

Pretty much simultaneously with that, homeless people started appearing in the streets and they've been a regular feature of Canadian urban life since then in my observation.

Of course, that could just mean they were "out of sight, out of mind" in '89.

That's just the problem. Solve our "homeless on the street" problem by - locking them up forever in cages.

Canada went the other way: a social consensus built, based on among other things some notable horror stories, that "lock 'em up" was inhumane and unethical. So the pendulum swung hard in the other direction.

Agreed.   I suspect the real incentive for governments of the day to move toward "community care" was that it was supposed to reduce cost and it didnt hurt that everyone seemed to think it was a good idea.  The reality is that community care is non existent and that lack of care ends up costing tax payers a lot more on many levels.

Community care and out-patient programs are fine in theory. The problem is that each successive budget finds money coming out of such much needed programs. The money just isn't there for these programs anymore. As an addition to what you and Malthus have said, it would be great if what comes out of this is the realization that we shouldn't cut money from our social programs (and this is probably a provincial thing, not federal, so this isn't a Harper-slam) , but alas we all know that's unlikely to happen.

[dps]

When I moved to Canada in '89 there were basically no visibly homeless people in Ottawa. A few years later, there was a significant change to how the programs on mental illness. Money were saved, and things like housing and in-patient treatment was drastically cut in favour of allegedly more efficient and humane out-patient treatment combined with a reliance on the existing social safety network.

Pretty much simultaneously with that, homeless people started appearing in the streets and they've been a regular feature of Canadian urban life since then in my observation.

That largely mirrors what happened in the US roughly 20 years earlier.

[viper37]

Community care and out-patient programs are fine in theory. The problem is that each successive budget finds money coming out of such much needed programs. The money just isn't there for these programs anymore. As an addition to what you and Malthus have said, it would be great if what comes out of this is the realization that we shouldn't cut money from our social programs (and this is probably a provincial thing, not federal, so this isn't a Harper-slam) , but alas we all know that's unlikely to happen.

Money is there, 90% of it doesn't go the patients though.

[crazy canuck]

Colbert does a piece in tribute to Vickers.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/television/colbert-apologizes-to-canada-praises-sgt-at-arms-vickers/article21397960/