Berkely students petition to stop Bill Maher from delivering commencement addres

Started by Josephus, October 27, 2014, 06:06:45 PM

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Queequeg

QuoteThe religious differences between the Saudi monarchy and its followers on the one-hand, and ISIS jihadists on the other hand, are pretty minor.  But they are mortal foes in the political realm.
Saudi clergy are a different matter.  ISIS's ties with Wahhabism are extremely close, far closer than Al Qaeda ever was.

QuoteI'm sure the leaders do believe much of what they say, but the existence and success of radical Sunni jihadism as a political phenomenon is not because it represents a logical and compelling working out of religious commandments; it is because it is a useful and effective rallying point for frustrated and angry young men to find political efficacy and to have an outlet for violence.
I'm not convinced these are mutually exclusive. 
Quote from: PDH on April 25, 2009, 05:58:55 PM
"Dysthymia?  Did they get some student from the University of Chicago with a hard-on for ancient Bactrian cities to name this?  I feel cheated."

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: The Brain on October 28, 2014, 12:13:48 PM
Yeah the angry violent young men could just as easily have rallied around liberal democracy. :rolleyes:

Valmy - time to get into the thread . . .
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Eddie Teach

To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

The Minsky Moment

The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson


Eddie Teach

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 28, 2014, 12:26:18 PM
Is there something uniquely liberal about drug cocktails?

Capital punishment for economic or political offenses is illiberal.
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

crazy canuck

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 28, 2014, 12:38:04 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 28, 2014, 12:26:18 PM
Is there something uniquely liberal about drug cocktails?

Capital punishment for economic or political offenses is illiberal.

Assuming a country has capital punishment where would you stand on the issue of treason?

Eddie Teach

It's generally a bullshit charge.

In cases where it's not, I think stripping the person's citizenship is the harshest appropriate response, unless they have broken other laws.
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

crazy canuck

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 28, 2014, 12:44:24 PM
It's generally a bullshit charge.

In cases where it's not, I think stripping the person's citizenship is the harshest appropriate response, unless they have broken other laws.

I am curious, what "bullshit charges" have there been?  It seems to me to be a very seldom used charge.

Eddie Teach

Admiral Byng?

I dunno, it's just bandied about a lot. There's people who consider Jane Fonda a traitor, for instance. /shrug
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

crazy canuck

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 28, 2014, 12:53:16 PM
Admiral Byng?

I dunno, it's just bandied about a lot. There's people who consider Jane Fonda a traitor, for instance. /shrug

There is a signficant difference between political rhetoric of branding an adversary a "traitor" and the criminal offence of treason.

Razgovory

Quote from: Viking on October 28, 2014, 11:40:34 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 28, 2014, 11:07:37 AM
Odd that you classify sub-Sahran Africa as having a lot of Islamic influence but not Europe.  I'm not clear what you wish to show here.  That the Arab states are improving at a faster rate then Europe does and at the same speed as East Asia?  That doesn't seem to be reinforce arguments that the Islam is uniquely bad.

Because, y'know, hundreds of millions of muslims as opposed to about 10 million; dozens of muslim majority countries as opposed to 2 in europe.

Odd you ignore the argument being made, but then again your position has no merit.

You said "influence", not "how many millions of Muslims".  It was my understanding that Europe was a lot Muslim influence (as well as four times as many Muslims as you claim).  Still I don't understand what you think this graph means:  From what I can tell the Arab world (which has lots of Muslims), is developing as about the same speed as Latin America (which has few Muslims).  So perhaps you can tell the class exactly what you are trying to express with this graph here.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Viking

Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 28, 2014, 11:49:16 AM
Islam is an immature religion.  Still needs a few more centuries to settle down.

Thats a bullshit position. They were much more mature and responisible in the past.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Viking

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 28, 2014, 12:09:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 28, 2014, 11:25:48 AM
Is there so much Islamic violence because Islam is a violent religion, or is there so much Islamic violence because Islam is the religion that happens to be followed by parts of the world that are completely fucked up?

To paraphrase Martinus, the empirical evidence would strongly suggest the latter.  Because the same kind of violence was going on in the same parts of the world in the recent past, only under the rubric of socialist liberationism, or Arab Nationalism.  Instead of medieval-style beheadings, they would hijack airplanes and execute people, or through them off cruise ships, or machine-gun people at the Olympic Games.  Islam is the flavor now because all politically-based ideologies have been discredited, and "Islam" can fill whatever meaning one wants to propogate.

The religious differences between the Saudi monarchy and its followers on the one-hand, and ISIS jihadists on the other hand, are pretty minor.  But they are mortal foes in the political realm.  That is a big hint that religious doctrine is not really at the heart of what is going with these movements.  I'm sure the leaders do believe much of what they say, but the existence and success of radical Sunni jihadism as a political phenomenon is not because it represents a logical and compelling working out of religious commandments; it is because it is a useful and effective rallying point for frustrated and angry young men to find political efficacy and to have an outlet for violence.

How about you leave open the option that the reason they give is relevant to what they do and why?

The various groups of islamists do hate each other because the revolution eats it's children. But the case you are making here is analogous to saying that communist revolutions weren't about communist ideology because people have always been fighting. I don't accept that. Ideas and values do matter. When your self proclaimed ideology instructs you to fight, kill and oppress other regligious groups and you do just that then Ideology matters.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

CountDeMoney

Quote from: Viking on October 29, 2014, 03:23:21 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 28, 2014, 11:49:16 AM
Islam is an immature religion.  Still needs a few more centuries to settle down.

Thats a bullshit position. They were much more mature and responisible in the past.

Meh, debatable.  They didn't make it all the way to Spain by selling copies of Grit magazine.