Scottish Independence

[Sheilbh]

The Scottish assembly and London assembly (the main ones people look at. Sorry Wales) had been going a few years but they hadn't really had much of an impact yet. Their first policies were only just beginning to go into practice and they just didn't appear on people's radar the way they do today.

I don't think the Scottish Parliament's done that much yet, because they're not able too really. But at that point they'd already got a different, cheaper tuition fees policy and I believe brought back free eye tests on the NHS. In London by then Ken was running for a second term so he'd already hugely increased the spend on public transport - especially buses - and introducted the Congestion Charge.

It may not have been on people's radar but I think maybe that's because they've continued to fall behind more than anything else.

Mayors... Yeah, I think that was a stupid idea. True Victorian thinking for the modern day. One thing Britain could do with is really overhauling local government so that metropolises ( and their surrounding areas.) can be far more effective working as one than the current state of Newcastle vs Gateshead vs south tune side vs north tyneside vs sunderland, etc... Fighting for scraps.

Surely the opposite? Councils and Lord Mayors is Victorian, directly elected mayors are a feature in almost every modern state but the UK. Okay but the London Assembly has no powers. Its role is to oversee the mayor and I think that's a huge part of London's recent success. Similarly I think, though we'll see in a while, that the cities that chose to have mayors will do better.

I think that's a problem in the North-East though. Manchester and Liverpool and Leeds have found the political will to bring together different councils and to work more effectively. It's having an effect. I don't think the issue is necessarily structural as much as whether that will exists.

[Sheilbh]

That they would be forced to adopt the euro if they want to join the eu is one area where the no campaign has been scared into stating quiet for fear of the yes campaign, masters of scare tactics themselves, yelling scare story.

No they wouldn't. Sweden's legally committed to joining the Euro and would probably meet all the entry criteria. No one's forcing them into it, or likely to do so despite the fact that they're probably in breach of their commitments.

If Scotland goes, there will be years of bickering on how much debt they should take, about the navy bases, about the currency, about citizenships, jurisdiction on who knows what... I am betting the populist ambitious Scottish guy who decided he wants an own country to run will be happy to involve the public as a weapon in these negotiations.

I think it'll be over very quickly and they'll meet their goal, if they win, of independence in 2016.

It's got to be negotiated and the public in both countries absolutely have to be involved because we're democracies. It'd be insane if they weren't. But there'll be a general election in 2015, and there should be one for the Scottish Parliament in 2015 too, so both sides will have a mandate. The difference is Alex Salmond's a very good politician who'd just have won the fight of his life. Whether it's Miliband or Cameron, they're a hollow man who's just lost the country.

My own guess is that lots of it'll be tough but a combination of market pressure (on currency and debt) and shared national interest plus American pressure (Scotland staying in NATO minus Trident) would mean a lot will be settled quite quickly. And there are a few areas where we're already separate. Scotland's got its own education and legal system for example.

[Josquius]

The Swedish ERM2 loophole is no longer there for new EU members.
Sweden's toleration is grandfathered in

[Sheilbh]

Also in Rupert Murdoch's latest salvo at the British establishment:
Salmond's private polls predict 54-46  Yes. Desperate last ten days ahead for both sides.   Most powerful media, BBC, totally biased for No.
Scotland.  Now southern parties all promising much new autonomy if vote is No.  Problem for them now is credibility. Also too late.

Worth saying the SNP's private polls aren't seen as that credible though they could be right. There's also rumours that the Scottish Sun will back independence, over the howls of the London editor of The Sun.

I do wonder if all the leftie wing of the Yes campaign ever imagined this was how they imagined the brave new age

[Sheilbh]

The Swedish ERM2 loophole is no longer there for new EU members.
Sweden's toleration is grandfathered in

It's still in the treaty that participation of a state in ERM2 is voluntary for non-Euro members. That's why Sweden's out and Denmark's in - the ECB said it wouldn't be for new members in the future and that Sweden was grandfathered in, but the Lisbon Treaty kept the language.

If the Scottish government or people via a referendum chose not to enter the Euro they wouldn't be forced in.

[Tamas]

That they would be forced to adopt the euro if they want to join the eu is one area where the no campaign has been scared into stating quiet for fear of the yes campaign, masters of scare tactics themselves, yelling scare story.

No they wouldn't. Sweden's legally committed to joining the Euro and would probably meet all the entry criteria. No one's forcing them into it, or likely to do so despite the fact that they're probably in breach of their commitments.

If Scotland goes, there will be years of bickering on how much debt they should take, about the navy bases, about the currency, about citizenships, jurisdiction on who knows what... I am betting the populist ambitious Scottish guy who decided he wants an own country to run will be happy to involve the public as a weapon in these negotiations.

I think it'll be over very quickly and they'll meet their goal, if they win, of independence in 2016.

It's got to be negotiated and the public in both countries absolutely have to be involved because we're democracies. It'd be insane if they weren't. But there'll be a general election in 2015, and there should be one for the Scottish Parliament in 2015 too, so both sides will have a mandate. The difference is Alex Salmond's a very good politician who'd just have won the fight of his life. Whether it's Miliband or Cameron, they're a hollow man who's just lost the country.

My own guess is that lots of it'll be tough but a combination of market pressure (on currency and debt) and shared national interest plus American pressure (Scotland staying in NATO minus Trident) would mean a lot will be settled quite quickly. And there are a few areas where we're already separate. Scotland's got its own education and legal system for example.

A show on the BBC doing a seemingly good job on presenting both sides of the argument mentioned that the breakup of Czechoslovakia took IIRC 3 years and more than ten thousand treaties.

[Ideologue]

Why is it self-hating to wish to be absorbed into a better, larger, more diverse culture?

Anyway, if you lived in Hungary, you'd probably be self-hating too.

[Admiral Yi]

I would think those with their own personality could find an identity even without their own postage stamps and national bird.

[Tamas]

I would think those with their own personality could find an identity even without their own postage stamps and national bird.

Yes.

And the thing is, this region isn't really all that better off with the half-assed mini states the West created out of the Dual Monarchy's ashes. Did nationalistic hatred decrease? Quite the contrary. Did it stop the region from being the playground of Germany and Russia? Quite the contrary. Did it help the economy of the successor states? Quite the contrary.

[Martinus]

This kind of "pride of the periphery", whether coming from a Serbian or a Quebecois, has always been baffling to me.

[celedhring]

I consider myself a Catalan and I don't really need a passport of border guards for it, really. As long as I live in a democratic state that's respectful of my language and culture, I'm fine. Spain sort of behaves in that regard.

Ultimately "language/nationhood" is only a part of what I am. Should we really make a state for say, gay people? Star War fans? Shy people?

[Eddie Teach]

This kind of "pride of the periphery", whether coming from a Serbian or a Quebecois, has always been baffling to me.

Or a Lithuanian?

[Tamas]

This kind of "pride of the periphery", whether coming from a Serbian or a Quebecois, has always been baffling to me.

Or a Lithuanian?

Oh come on.

It is a world of difference when Baltic States are worried about getting back under the heels of the Russian Czar, and Scotland or Quebec throwing a first world problem QQ fest being ready to fuck up themselves over minor issues.

[Eddie Teach]

I was making a reference to Poland-Lithuania.

[Warspite]

This kind of "pride of the periphery", whether coming from a Serbian or a Quebecois, has always been baffling to me.

Well, it makes more sense in Europe now, given that the EU allows small states to flourish.