Scottish Independence

[Sheilbh]

It puzzles me how half the Scotts can think that the massive upheaval that would follow independence would worth it.

It seems to me that in general people's perception of the magnitude of their problems scales to fill the available problems. In other words, whatever it is they're unhappy with is a really really really big problem, and it's worthwhile to take drastic action to fix it.

Well the big issue, I think, has always been identity. Going back was a reminder of just how different Scotland feels.

This isn't happening because there's been some sort of crisis or because there's some problem they want solving. The SNP campaigned in an election and said they'd hold a referendum in 2014 which, if they won, would lead to independence in 2016. Then they negotiated the timing and the question with the British government and passed their referendum.

The focus on how evil the Tories are is because the swing voters are Labour.

Faceless corporations and rich fucks in general have a lot easier time subverting tiny nations than they do real ones.

I'm not so sure. I mean Scandinavia suggests otherwise. There was nothing to subvert in Ireland because Fianna Fail always had their own rich seam of corruption.

I think it'd make more sense that where politics is more intimate it's more difficult to subvert the system than where it's a sort of hyper-reality played out in the media.

[Josquius]

I do think a lot of the identity thing is founded on ignorance. When they point at England being so different what they really mean by England is London. The posh part of London (mostly not actually in the city itself but there you go).

The SNP are such sneaks with the way this whole thing is happening.

[Martinus]

No/No. It would be a disaster.

[Martinus]

As a Scottish American

You Americans are funny. 

[Martinus]

I do hope the Scots will not make the same abysmal mistake we did here by voting no.  I hear Cameron is promising major changes if the No wins... we've heard it all before here in Quebec - and we got screwed, sideways and back again - by some of our very own people.

But the Yes wins I'll make a point to visit Scotland.

A strong reason to vote no, then.

[Martinus]

Incidentally I'm in a full-blown panic about them leaving now - as someone who absolutely loves Scotland and quite likes the union. But I feel like I'm alone.

I had an impression The Economist has been pretty fretful about the prospects of "Yes" winning. They are true to their art of understatement but they do not seem to favour the "Yes" vote one bit.

[Martinus]

If he knew what was good for him, he would.  The notion of self-determination is self-evidently retarded in a modern liberal democracy.  Especially when the constituent parts will stay EU members and literally nothing will change for anyone except the elites, who'll rake off North Sea oil money or whatever it is that's driving the vile Scottish rebellion.

I agree with Ide. 

I would much more prefer to live in Poland if we were conquered by Germans (not nazis, but something like Prussia) or Swedes long time ago and be a part of their country now. Russia is different but this is not about independence but them being bloody huns.

[Tamas]

It puzzles me how half the Scotts can think that the massive upheaval that would follow independence would worth it.

Ask yourself if you'd still like to be part of Austria-Hungary?



G.

Hells yeah.

[Sheilbh]

I do think a lot of the identity thing is founded on ignorance. When they point at England being so different what they really mean by England is London. The posh part of London (mostly not actually in the city itself but there you go).

I've always thought England is the problem child of the UK. In Scotland or Wales there's no issue with Scottish or Welshness and also no sense that they're somehow ethnically exclusive. They have very clear identities and, as I say, Scotland feels very different from England - by which I mean Cumbria and Lancashire as much as London.

England, for whatever reason, isn't comfortable in its own skin and to a far greater extent is seen as an ethnic identifier. Add to that groups like the EDL or the NF and over the years you've had middle-class English people being uncomfortable with saying they're English, though that's starting to change now. I think for a long time they projected their Englishness onto Britishness making it seem interchangeable rather than an identifier of the things we shared.

Britishness too often has meant Englishness. In Scotland I'd be rather dubious about any North Britons.

The SNP are such sneaks with the way this whole thing is happening.

Bollocks. A Scottish National Party are sneaks for the way they promoted Scottish nationalism to the point where they're winning elections and possibly a referendum. I think it's that the other three unionist parties and the British establishment have been fucking up for a very long time.

I'd start by blaming the fact that every Labour big hitter who goes to campaign is an MP, not an MSP. Brown, Alexander, Murphy, Darling would all rather a shot at being PM or in the British cabinet rather than actually running, say, chunks of domestic policy in Scotland. The SNP, meanwhile, have all their most substantial figures in the Scottish Parliament. I doubt it'll be noted that half the No campaign have to get the Caledonian Sleeper when they want to make a speech.

No/No. It would be a disaster.

Why a disaster?

I had an impression The Economist has been pretty fretful about the prospects of "Yes" winning. They are true to their art of understatement but they do not seem to favour the "Yes" vote one bit.

That's good. From London most of my friends just can't imagine that Scotland would vote yes. The media's treated it like a local campaign to save the Shropshire A&E, not a referendum that'll decide the future of our country and, again, view a yes vote with incredulity. The politicians (in my view stupidly) have stayed away because they feel they'd do more harm than good on the campaign.

[Sheilbh]

Hells yeah.

God an even more dysfunctional state than Hungary. Imagine Hungarian, Yugoslav and Austrian graft in one country

[Sheilbh]

Incidentally I'm in a mad panic following Rupert Murdoch's tweets:
London Times will shock Britain and more with reliable new poll on Scottish independence.  If right on 18 th vote everything up for grabs
Scottish independence means huge black eye for whole political establishment, especially Cameron and Milliband.
Scottish poll reflects world-wide disillusion with political leaders and old establishments leaving openings for libertarians and far left.

The man's hatred of the British Establishment burns as only an Australian's can

He also, apparently, gets on very well with Alex Salmond and has been meeting with Farage

[viper37]

Faceless corporations and rich fucks in general have a lot easier time subverting tiny nations than they do real ones.

so, everything is fine in the US, I guess?

[Duque de Bragança]

Most hilarious scenario would be Scotland leaving the UK, with the UK leaving the EU. Scotland in the EU instead of the UK.

[The Brain]

Does the entire UK vote in the referendum?

[mongers]

Most hilarious scenario would be Scotland leaving the UK, with the UK leaving the EU. Scotland in the EU instead of the UK.

Yes for us pro-European English, it's utterly hilarious.