Fitness 2014

[OttoVonBismarck]

I cant do squats very well these days.  Kills my knees.

Do you have any actual knee problems? If so, mind my asking what specifically? A lot of knee problems proper squatting you can actually improve it. I know people with double knee replacements who happily squat on a regular basis.

If you're just having pain in the knee from squatting but no injury or medical problem with your knees it could just be you're not squatting correctly. A lot of tall guys actually have form issues with both squats and deadlifts (among other lifts), because their anthropometry is really different from average height and shorter people (most guys over 6'4" a large portion of their height is in their legs vs trunk than for shorter persons, although some odd people particular those with pituitary gigantism have shorter person dimensions at great heights as their growth is not really part of the natural growth process for their bodies.) A lot of coaches/instructors/books etc that teach people how to squat don't properly show taller/longer legged people the actual right form as there are form concerns specific to taller persons. Many really tall guys are actually told they can never really do much serious lifting because of the mechanical disadvantages with long limbs and weight lifting (even though I can show you videos of 7' tall people deadlifting 800+ pounds.)

I only ask because for the barbell movements I'm a big advocate of the squat, done properly it's basically the best lift their is. Some people definitely can't do it, although typically it's actually hip issues that cannot be worked around that can sideline you from squatting and of course with elderly persons just general balance can be too poor to squat.

[crazy canuck]

You are probably right about it being my form.  As it turns out I am going to tag along with J today when he has a session with his lifting instructor and I will ask about that.

[OttoVonBismarck]

If you're doing traditional squats in my experience a lot of times knee pain comes from doing 3/4 squats instead of parallel (making the "angle" of your leg actually 90 degrees), while a lot of nonsense doctors and such that don't actually know physiology say all squatting is bad for you a proper depth squat uses the knee in a way that really shouldn't cause any problems. But if you stop at incomplete depth the patellar tendons and such are basically bracing against a heavy load in a way that can cause pain, potentially sprains/strains or ever worse with heavy enough weights / bad luck. A full depth squat you're bouncing back up off the stretch reflex of the hamstrings, which is a far bigger muscle to be helping out here instead of the knee musculature which is what gets involved with incomplete depth squatting. For myself, once you really learn the feel of the different muscle groups I always know I've not hit my depth when I feel any knee wobble at all, because that's a sign I've put stress onto the knee tendons instead of the hamstring.

The squat is really kind of a bitch of an exercise form wise, potentially the hardest non-Olympic lift out there in terms of what it takes to get it just perfect. I've been squatting (in my opinion) with great form for years, but I still have a bad form rep from time to time, it's just hard not to.

If you have concerns about squat form and want an easy alternative, front squats are generally really effective and the easiest to perform primarily because it's really obvious if you're doing them right or wrong. With the high-bar/low-bar back squat all kinds of difficult stuff in terms of properly setting the back, proper use of hips, proper back angle as you go down/up come into play and all the cues for getting those right take time/effort to learn. With the front squat you basically keep a vertical back all the way up/down, which eliminates much of the trouble.

[crazy canuck]

Otto, you were absolutely right.  I just wasn't doing it properly.  J's trainer took some time to adjust some things and... no pain at all.  He played Rugby in Aus before immigrating to Canada and was used to teaching tall guys proper technique.  He knew exactly what you were talking about.

Thanks for the advice 

[OttoVonBismarck]

Excellent, glad to hear it. Most people will give up squatting at the least provocation, it's rare someone actually tries to fix their form and keep going with it  .

I'm not surprised it was correctable, typically squat knee pain is, as is low back pain (from poor back angle.) Now, hip pain is usually not form related but deterioration related with the squat, and is not often correctable without a hip replacement.

[alfred russel]

I've really only been posting about this in TBR, but the past year or two I've been doing some rather aggressive hiking / basic mountaineering. I have a trip coming up in September. In the past I've prepped by regularly running and one day a week hiking up and down relatively small mountains in Georgia .

I want to get more training in, but adding more miles running can't be done (I start breaking down), and time wise I can't do more hiking. I'm spending some time on an exercise bike but I'm not sure if this is wasting my time. My theory for the bike is that it puts my quads through the paces a bit, and to a lesser extent is more cardio.

What do the gurus here think? Drop the exercise bike or keep it? Bring in something else?

[mongers]

I've really only been posting about this in TBR, but the past year or two I've been doing some rather aggressive hiking / basic mountaineering. I have a trip coming up in September. In the past I've prepped by regularly running and one day a week hiking up and down relatively small mountains in Georgia .

I want to get more training in, but adding more miles running can't be done (I start breaking down), and time wise I can't do more hiking. I'm spending some time on an exercise bike but I'm not sure if this is wasting my time. My theory for the bike is that it puts my quads through the paces a bit, and to a lesser extent is more cardio.

What do the gurus here think? Drop the exercise bike or keep it? Bring in something else?

Try a mountain bike in some of the semi-challenging terrain/tracks you're already hiking on?


edit:
Just to make clear I don't consider myself a guru with regard to anything, least of all proper exercise.

[alfred russel]

mongers, the problem is that it is really exercise bike or bust. For starters, I don't have a bike. But more importantly, I just don't have time to get out to a trail during weekdays.

At a more basic level, would biking really help hiking? It seems like it should. My quads burn a bit when I get off an exercise bike. Stronger quads seems like something that should help climbing. But I don't know that.

[mongers]

mongers, the problem is that it is really exercise bike or bust. For starters, I don't have a bike. But more importantly, I just don't have time to get out to a trail during weekdays.

At a more basic level, would biking really help hiking? It seems like it should. My quads burn a bit when I get off an exercise bike. Stronger quads seems like something that should help climbing. But I don't know that.

I've been sort of wondering the reverse, can I cut back on cycling and get any good at walking/hiking.

[alfred russel]

mongers, the problem is that it is really exercise bike or bust. For starters, I don't have a bike. But more importantly, I just don't have time to get out to a trail during weekdays.

At a more basic level, would biking really help hiking? It seems like it should. My quads burn a bit when I get off an exercise bike. Stronger quads seems like something that should help climbing. But I don't know that.

I've been sort of wondering the reverse, can I cut back on cycling and get any good at walking/hiking.

I think the best way to get good at walking / hiking is to walk / hike. The same way the best way to get good at cycling is to cycle, and the best way to get good at running is to run.

So I think you will get better at hiking by hiking. I do think that running a bit is really key to get good at hiking. This is anecdotal, but it seems in the groups I've hiked with, the guys who run do better than the guys who cycle. That could be because an hour of cycling tends to be less intense than an hour of running among the amateur crowd, and may not apply to people that take cycling more seriously. But nevertheless, I think the best thing to do is hike. I've been hiking with people that left me in their dust, but who I can outrun by a good margin. Those are the people that hike more than me.

[crazy canuck]

I've really only been posting about this in TBR, but the past year or two I've been doing some rather aggressive hiking / basic mountaineering. I have a trip coming up in September. In the past I've prepped by regularly running and one day a week hiking up and down relatively small mountains in Georgia .

I want to get more training in, but adding more miles running can't be done (I start breaking down), and time wise I can't do more hiking. I'm spending some time on an exercise bike but I'm not sure if this is wasting my time. My theory for the bike is that it puts my quads through the paces a bit, and to a lesser extent is more cardio.

What do the gurus here think? Drop the exercise bike or keep it? Bring in something else?

Extra time running or hiking isnt going to help you anyway.  You need to increase the intensity of your workouts not the length so that mere hiking up a mountain will seem easy.

I would suggest intense sessions of ladder work mixed with weights.  The key is to keep your heart rate up throughout - thats where the ladder work comes in and the weights to build endurance - deadlifts (and ironically squats) will really help if you do them with a high heart rate.  You could also do hill running - sprint up a steep hill, walk or jog down and repeat.  Stair running also will do it if you have a long set of stairs that you can run up.  The key is the intensity not the length of the work out.

[crazy canuck]

I think the best way to get good at walking / hiking is to walk / hike. The same way the best way to get good at cycling is to cycle, and the best way to get good at running is to run.

Nope, that is the slowest way to improve.  You will only be as good as the toughtest hike you do regularly.  Do intense training and those tough walks will be very easy.

Think of it this way, athletes don't get fit just playing their sport.  Basketball coaches reward their players for a good practice session with a scrimage at the end of practice because that is easy compared to what they have had to endure beforehand.

[alfred russel]

Extra time running or hiking isnt going to help you anyway.  You need to increase the intensity of your workouts not the length so that mere hiking up a mountain will seem easy.

I would suggest intense sessions of ladder work mixed with weights.  The key is to keep your heart rate up throughout - thats where the ladder work comes in and the weights to build endurance - deadlifts (and ironically squats) will really help if you do them with a high heart rate.  You could also do hill running - sprint up a steep hill, walk or jog down and repeat.  Stair running also will do it if you have a long set of stairs that you can run up.  The key is the intensity not the length of the work out.

CC, I don't know...I don't have all the answers, that is why I'm posting here, but I made a conscious decision to avoid incorporating weights into cardio or for my legs. On my biggest day, I'm going to be doing a 12 hr push. My heartrate will be up the whole time, or at least during the ascent phase. This is what I've planned out (I'm excluding upper body work, which is a lot less in any case). All of these get my heart rate up, especially the running (I generally stay above my target heartrate when running).

Again, I could be wrong, but it seems the more high intensity burst workouts you suggest are well suited to a sport like basketball or soccer where the duration is less and quickness is at a premium (you need the fast twitch fibers going). What I'm doing is all about slow twitch fibers and endurance over a long period.

I did plan on starting trail running this year, but I didn't. If I started it now, I would have to drop the hiking I've mentioned below.

Monday
off

Tuesday - Thursday
50 min exercise bike (in the morning)
6 mile run (~8 min / mile) (in the evening)

Friday
10-12 mile run (~8:45 min / mile)

Saturday
50 min exercise bike

Sunday
hiking (up and down Stone Mountain, currently going for ~5600 ft ascent / descent, hoping to go for a ~8000 ft ascent / descent before leaving)

[alfred russel]

I should add that if I stay with the plan and if history is a guide, I'm going to miss ~1 run a week and probably half the exercise bike time. I tend to oversleep many mornings.

[crazy canuck]

Extra time running or hiking isnt going to help you anyway.  You need to increase the intensity of your workouts not the length so that mere hiking up a mountain will seem easy.

I would suggest intense sessions of ladder work mixed with weights.  The key is to keep your heart rate up throughout - thats where the ladder work comes in and the weights to build endurance - deadlifts (and ironically squats) will really help if you do them with a high heart rate.  You could also do hill running - sprint up a steep hill, walk or jog down and repeat.  Stair running also will do it if you have a long set of stairs that you can run up.  The key is the intensity not the length of the work out.

CC, I don't know...I don't have all the answers, that is why I'm posting here, but I made a conscious decision to avoid incorporating weights into cardio or for my legs.

Why?  All you are going to do is modestly improve your cardio.  If you really want to improve your conditioning and your endurance you shouldnt just do more of what you can already do.