How many people in Quebec are like Viper and Grallon?

[crazy canuck]

That has nothing to do with it. Don't be a viper/Liberal party member & bring everything back to that.

You dont see at least some link between the separatist concern about their vote being diluted away by immigrants coming to the Province and a piece of legislation that targets the beliefs of immigrants who separatists dont want to attract to the Province?

Yes, viper.

Ok, not sure why you dont think there is such a link.  Seems painfully obvious to me. 

[Berkut]

I'm ok with no sign of religion to public employees.

Why?  Why is this a good idea?

I don't know how to rationilize it, nor how to write out good compelling argument why that would be good idea.

If you find yourself unable to rationalize or create a compelling argument for your position, then perhaps you should re-examine your position and the irrational and non-compelling reasons you have for holding it?

[Grey Fox]

That has nothing to do with it. Don't be a viper/Liberal party member & bring everything back to that.

You dont see at least some link between the separatist concern about their vote being diluted away by immigrants coming to the Province and a piece of legislation that targets the beliefs of immigrants who separatists dont want to attract to the Province?

Yes, viper.

Ok, not sure why you dont think there is such a link.  Seems painfully obvious to me.

Because, the separatists aren't actually much of a separatist party anymore.

[Grey Fox]

I'm ok with no sign of religion to public employees.

Why?  Why is this a good idea?

I don't know how to rationilize it, nor how to write out good compelling argument why that would be good idea.

If you find yourself unable to rationalize or create a compelling argument for your position, then perhaps you should re-examine your position and the irrational and non-compelling reasons you have for holding it?

Maybe but then we'll go back to having Viper & CC argue about nothing, so I won't tell Languish.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Why?  Why is this a good idea?

I don't know how to rationilize it, nor how to write out good compelling argument why that would be good idea.

But, in a general principal way, I am always in the favor of LESS religion in every sphere of society.

Because there isn't a good compelling argument why that would be a good idea.

You are welcome to choose for yourself to have less religion in your life. You do not, however, get to choose for OTHERS how much religion they have in THEIR lives. That's crossing a line that just shouldn't be crossed. So long as what they do does not hinder or endanger others, you should really be keeping yourself to yourself on this one.

when you work for the government you're a representative of that government. That means you don't get to proselytise for your particular religion, sportsclub, music, sexual oriëntation or any other personal opinions. You get to do that in your own free time, not when your working.

[garbon]

What I want to know, are there enough people in Quebec that think like Grallon to make the Charter of Values politically saleable in Quebec?

As for religious symbols, well, the state should be neutral and not take any part in the religion of its employees.  I'll clash with most people, including BB (sorry), but I still believe religion should be a private thing and has no place in the public sphere.  Government employees, theoritically, are forbidden to do any politics, wear any political symbols (say, a Liberal party pin, or a Che t-shirt I guess ).  In practice, we all know many Federal employees actively support the Liberal Party of Quebec and Canada, particularly in the Ottawa-Gatineau area and do it on their work time (Chuck Guitté wasn't alone, you know).  But in theory, such things are forbidden. 

So I don't really see a difference between politics and religion.  I don't mind someone working in his office, mostly alone, wearing an hijab, a cross, kipa, kirpan, whatever, but imho, when it comes to public, the face of the government should be religion-neutral.

And of course, no face covering while in the street, or driving, or flying.  The message must be clear if we don't want anymore honor crimes like the Shaffia.

So okay if you are gay as long as you keep it a secret?

[crazy canuck]

when you work for the government you're a representative of that government. That means you don't get to proselytise for your particular religion, sportsclub, music, sexual oriëntation or any other personal opinions. You get to do that in your own free time, not when your working.

I agree proselytising would go over the line.  But I fail to see how wearing clothing required by a religious belief is proselytising.

In your view if there was an event the employee had to attend on behalf of the government which serviced ham sandwiches that a person who does not eat ham because of their religious beliefs would still have to eat it so as not to proselytise?

[garbon]

It seems there is utility in keeping these non-dominant language groups "oppressed". Left to pursue their agendas unhindered they would establish quite restrictive societies!

[crazy canuck]

It seems there is utility in keeping these non-dominant language groups "oppressed". Left to pursue their agendas unhindered they would establish quite restrictive societies!

[garbon]

when you work for the government you're a representative of that government. That means you don't get to proselytise for your particular religion, sportsclub, music, sexual oriëntation or any other personal opinions. You get to do that in your own free time, not when your working.

I agree proselytising would go over the line.  But I fail to see how wearing clothing required by a religious belief is proselytising.

In your view if there was an event the employee had to attend on behalf of the government which serviced ham sandwiches that a person who does not eat ham because of their religious beliefs would still have to eat it so as not to proselytise?

And what if a male government worker mentioned his husband?

[viper37]

How is their prayer harming you in any way? So you stand there for a few minutes listening to what you term as dribble, and then move on. It's no different than listening to a speech that you think is a waste of time before an event.

How is no prayer harming you in any way?  Does the prayer has any medicinal effect? No.  Does it has any psychological effect? No.  Does it make you more efficient at your work?  No.

I want to hear metal music before a city counsil.  I'm told it offends others who are not fan of that music.

You guys attach far too much to the term "religion" as an excuse to ban things. If I wear a head-scarf to keep my hair in place - or because I don't want to brush it that day - will you then forbid me from doing so because of a religion elsewhere that attributes significance to doing so?

In your work, do you have a specific dress code?  When I worked in government, blue jeans were forbidden.  Metallica t-shirts were forbidden too.  Shirt, neck-tie, proper pants.  Nobody asked me if my religion required blue jeans and Iron Maiden t-shirts.
Was I discriminated against?

I have a lovely gold necklace that I love, that happens to have a cross on it along with some other geometric symbols. Will I be forbidden from wearing it to work simply because of the cross on it? What if I prefer a female doctor in the ER to deal with a rape? Will that be forbidden to? Or is only a preference based on religion that offends your delicate sensibilities?

You're asking me or you're asking what the law will be?
In my opinion, at the ER, you don't get to choose.  I can't chose wich doctor I see at the ER, they won't even tell me when a specific doctor will be there (and I understand the reasoning).
If you want to choose whom you're seeing, than you should go to your family doctor, at his office.

So long as my actions do not impinge on you or yours, then the government has no right to dictate to me what I can or cannot do.

but you're the one defining "impinge" and what impinge on me or not.  I don't get to say so... Maybe I am offended at seeing you clothed and I prefer to see women naked (like the Ferengi in Star Trek).  Will you walk along naked to not offend me?  Don't answer, you'll offend me

I like your line of reasoning, and I could even agree with it... except we don't have the same definition as to what is impinging on someone.  Orthodox Jews are offended by women in bathing suits, so they asks that women do not use the bathing pool near their community.  They are offended.  So we comply, and we block the windows to the gym, we bar women from this pool.  Muslim men are offended if women bathe in the same pool as men.  So we have seperate hours for men and women, at twice the costs.

Where does this bullshit stops?  Men&women are equals, it's the way of the land over here.  Why shoud we tolerate middle age behavior because some religious people are offended?  My grandpa never tolerated his daughters in bikini, but once they were married, he stopped talking about it, it was no longer his business.  My grandpa was a very religious man, but he never seek to impose his values on the outside, never required that others adapt to please him.

[crazy canuck]

And what if a male government worker mentioned his husband?

Well obviously he would have to get a divorce if that didnt conform to the governments view of how people should act.

[HVC]

It's always the French speaking western people who have a bug about language and other cultures. Quebec, France, the Walloons. Wonder why that is.

[garbon]

It's always the French speaking western people who have a bug about language and other cultures. Quebec, France, the Walloons. Wonder why that is.

To be fair we also have bigots as Viper likes to point out as twisted justification for his behavior. Its just that no one sensible trucks with them.

[Maximus]

It's always the French speaking western people who have a bug about language and other cultures. Quebec, France, the Walloons. Wonder why that is.

I don't know that I've even heard the Walloons going on about other cultures. The Flemish on the other hand...