Women as Army Rangers and Navy Seals by 2016

[11B4V]

Missed the point entirely MM.

Ok.  What is the point?

You cant hold the males to the 70% standard in their 17-21 age bracket, when your holding the females at 100% for the push-up's and run in their 17-21 age bracket. You are holding the females to a higher standard.

It will not fly. No way. No how.

It's called Equal Opportunity.

[crazy canuck]

Are standards being lowered, or are we talking about a hypothetical?

There's no hypothetical about it. It's inevitable and guaranteed. 

Let's take the push-up/sit-up/chin-up requirement for Ranger School.

Min to pass for entrance is
49 push-ups. (Perfectly executed that is.)
59 sit-ups
2 mile run in 15:12 minutes
6 chin-ups
5 mile run in forty minutes.

Push-up/Sit-up/2 Mile Run is 70% in the male 17-21 age bracket on the standard army apft. You could be a 35 yo old male and still have to attain this. So, to keep this at the 70% in the 17-21 age bracket:

This applied to the female bracket on the 17-21 female apft would be:
49 push-ups is above a 100%.
59 sit-ups is 70% same as the males.
70% on the 17-21 female push-up bracket is 25 push-ups

The 2 mile run.
15:12 is 70% for the 17-21 male age bracket. That is again over 100% for the female bracket. 18:06 is the 70% for the female 17-21 age bracket.

Chin-ups min. of six perfectly executed. No apft standard for this. So, girls suck it up.

5 mile run in 40 min. No apft standard for this. Suck it up ladies.


So using the above a Female would have to do:
25 push-ups.
59 sit-ups
2 mile run in 18:06 minutes
6 chin-ups
5 mile run in forty minutes.

The bolded can be considered lowered standards.

You are making exactly the same mistake referred to in my earlier posts.

[Jacob]

You cant hold the males to the 70% standard in their 17-21 age bracket, when your holding the females at 100% for the push-up's and run in their 17-21 age bracket. You are holding the females to a higher standard.

It will not fly. No way. No how.

It's called Equal Opportunity.

What's the 70% standard?

Are you saying that for some current physical requirements, women only have to achieve 70% of what men have to to qualify?

And because of that, you expect that similarly when applying to special forces school women some of the women's requirements will be 70% of the similar requirements for men?

[11B4V]

You are making exactly the same mistake referred to in my earlier posts.

Nope. You are asking a male to attain 49 push-ups which is 70%, and if he doesnt make it he's bounced from the course.

You're asking a female to attain above 100% and if she doesnt make it, she's bounced.

The females must pass at a higher standard than the males, if they keep the standards the same, that is.

Again, it wont fly.

EO

[mongers]

I'm not sure you can make organizations whose ultimate objective primarily involves killing large numbers of people, be accurate models of their own society.

[11B4V]

You cant hold the males to the 70% standard in their 17-21 age bracket, when your holding the females at 100% for the push-up's and run in their 17-21 age bracket. You are holding the females to a higher standard.

It will not fly. No way. No how.

It's called Equal Opportunity.

What's the 70% standard?

Are you saying that for some current physical requirements, women only have to achieve 70% of what men have to to qualify?

And because of that, you expect that similarly when applying to special forces school women some of the women's requirements will be 70% of the similar requirements for men?

You are speaking from ignorance. Not meant as an insult.

The PT test for ranger school for the Push-ups, sit-ups, and 2mile run are based on the 70% Male 17-21 age bracket.

i.e
Ranger school PT test Push-ups only for this example.
A male doing 49 push-ups has attained the min requirement for that event. Which is 70% in the male 17-21 age bracket on the APFT scale.

A female doing 49 push-ups has attained the min requirement for that event. Which is roughly 105% in the female 17-21 age bracket on the APFT scale.

If a female cant make the min. 49 push-ups, you are holding her to a higher standard than the males. A male only has to attain 70%. EOEOEOEOEOEOEOEOEOEOEOEO

[11B4V]

I'm not sure you can make organizations whose ultimate objective primarily involves killing large numbers of people, be accurate models of their own society.

What are you talking about?

[The Minsky Moment]

You cant hold the males to the 70% standard in their 17-21 age bracket, when your holding the females at 100% for the push-up's and run in their 17-21 age bracket. You are holding the females to a higher standard.

OK, got it.
However as a practical matter, a woman who can do the 6 chinups and the 16 mile march with 65 lbs is probably going to able to do quite a few more than 25 pushups.
Similarly a woman who can average 8 minute miles for 5 miles will be able to do 7.5 minute miles for 2 miles.

[11B4V]

You cant hold the males to the 70% standard in their 17-21 age bracket, when your holding the females at 100% for the push-up's and run in their 17-21 age bracket. You are holding the females to a higher standard.

OK, got it.
However as a practical matter, a woman who can do the 6 chinups and the 16 mile march with 65 lbs is probably going to able to do quite a few more than 25 pushups.
Similarly a woman who can average 8 minute miles for 5 miles will be able to do 7.5 minute miles for 2 miles.

Surely, it is probable. You cannot hold a female to a higher standard than the males. The issue comes when she gets bounced from the school.

[mongers]

I'm not sure you can make organizations whose ultimate objective primarily involves killing large numbers of people, be accurate models of their own society.

What are you talking about?

I want military units to retain whatever esprit de corps that's necessary for them to function at their most efficient in fighting and winning wars.

If it's necessary for them to hold onto what a progressive society might regard as archaic or outdated values, then I'm happy with that, as they're in part the ultimate guarantors of the civil society's continued existence. 

One doesn't have to mirror the other in order to protect it.

[11B4V]

The standards will be lowered. It is inevitable.  Anyone who says it wont, does not know the Army.

[11B4V]

I'm not sure you can make organizations whose ultimate objective primarily involves killing large numbers of people, be accurate models of their own society.

What are you talking about?

I want military units to retain whatever esprit de corps that's necessary for them to function at their most efficient in fighting and winning wars.

If it's necessary for them to hold onto what a progressive society might regard as archaic or outdated values, then I'm happy with that, as they're in part the ultimate guarantors of the civil society's continued existence. 

One doesn't not have to mirror the other in order to protect it.

Ah.


My thoughts on this is, I have no dog in this fight. If the Military wants to make the change then so be it. I could give a flying fuck.

[11B4V]

It may be that no female could meet a minimum standard for an elite fighting force.  But I am not sure why giving them the opportunity to meet the stardard would jeapardize the effectiveness of the force since the standard would be set at the level needed to maintain that effectiveness.

It wouldnt.

[Jacob]

You are speaking from ignorance. Not meant as an insult.

Oh, absolutely. I don't understand some of the terms you're throwing around, so no offense taken at all.

Thanks for taking the time to explain

[alfred russel]

11B4V or others that are knowledgeable, I'd appreciate some clarification on an impression I got as I don't really know.

A few years ago I decided to build an exercise routine around marine standards (on the basis that marines are in shape but aren't required to be super athletes). I surfed some military boards for fitness ideas and came up with the following impressions:
-The basic standards are really there to make sure people are taking reasonable care to stay in shape. That is why it doesn't matter that men and women have different standards: leadership wants the mechanics, nurses, and IT specialists of the military to be in shape, but they don't want to be chasing anyone off because they aren't track stars.
-The basic standards are not enough in armor and infantry. You won't be allowed to continue if you are barely skating by.
-The SF requirements are worthless. The point being I looked into the Navy Seals and Ranger minimum requirements, and I thought I could get there without too much trouble. I was doubting the media reports that the SF guys are supermen, but then I looked into what they are actually doing. From what I read, the chance of me actually getting through the training would be zero.