Women as Army Rangers and Navy Seals by 2016

[Alcibiades]

As long as they don't lower the physical requirements it shouldn't be much of an issue.  It will honestly exclude 99% of women if they don't lower the requirements.  And if they can make it through then they deserve to be there.


Unfortunately they probably will lower physical requirements.  Though, no women have made it through the Marine Infantry Officer course yet.

[Berkut]

Terrible idea but you might as well do it at this point.  Combat effectiveness and national security take a back seat to things like people's self-esteem.

Good point, but eventually the racist will grow to accept black soldiers as equal and this won't be an issue.

[derspiess]

Terrible idea but you might as well do it at this point.  Combat effectiveness and national security take a back seat to things like people's self-esteem.

Good point, but eventually the racist will grow to accept black soldiers as equal and this won't be an issue.

[Berkut]

As long as they don't lower the physical requirements it shouldn't be much of an issue.  It will honestly exclude 99% of women if they don't lower the requirements.  And if they can make it through then they deserve to be there.


Unfortunately they probably will lower physical requirements.  Though, no women have made it through the Marine Infantry Officer course yet.

I hope they do not, and I would even go a step further.

To make it into the SEALS, it isn't enough to meet some monimum standard, no matter how high that minimum is set.

You also have to be able to beat out a bunch of other people who want that same spot - so while everyone might meet the minimum objective standard, the actual practical "minimum" is likely much, much higher.

Because the goal isn't to make sure everyone meets some minimum standard to do the job, the goal is to make the force as effective as absolutely possible.

Physical fitness is something that is not a binary condition on combat effectiveness, especially in SF.

If you are comparing two soldiers who are identical, but one is in better physical condition than the other, then the one in better condition will be a better soldier overall, even if both meet some minimum standard.

So I don't really buy into the basic idea of CC's "define a minimum, and if they can meet it, they should be allowed in". I think that is fine to create the opportunity to compete for the spots, but at that point their physical capability should still be held up against others as a relevant variable to decide if they earn a spot on some SF team. And if you do that, I very much doubt that any woman will be making Seal Team 6 anytime...ever.

[Alcibiades]

Well we will have to see.  But even from what I see in the regular army the amount of attention and opportunities shoved on to female officers is extremely disproportionate and undeserved in an effort to draw attention to them since they are a minority, regardless of performance.

So I really will be shocked if some women aren't pushed through that don't belong to draw publicity and show how 'diverse' the military is.

[derspiess]

Diversity ueber alles. 

[Kleves]

Now that we are harnessing the power of diversity, we no longer need nuclear weapons.

[Valmy]

Well we will have to see.  But even from what I see in the regular army the amount of attention and opportunities shoved on to female officers is extremely disproportionate and undeserved in an effort to draw attention to them since they are a minority, regardless of performance.

So I really will be shocked if some women aren't pushed through that don't belong to draw publicity and show how 'diverse' the military is.

I am not sure lowering the standards like that actually helps women in the military much.  But I guess it sure beats the more recent publicity the military has been getting around women's issues.

[11B4V]

Well we will have to see.  But even from what I see in the regular army the amount of attention and opportunities shoved on to female officers is extremely disproportionate and undeserved in an effort to draw attention to them since they are a minority, regardless of performance.

So I really will be shocked if some women aren't pushed through that don't belong to draw publicity and show how 'diverse' the military is.

I am not sure lowering the standards like that actually helps women in the military much.  But I guess it sure beats the more recent publicity the military has been getting around women's issues.

What standards are we talking about lowering? PT?

[Jacob]

Are standards being lowered, or are we talking about a hypothetical?

[11B4V]

Are standards being lowered, or are we talking about a hypothetical?

There's no hypothetical about it. It's inevitable and guaranteed. 

Let's take the push-up/sit-up/chin-up requirement for Ranger School.

Min to pass for entrance is
49 push-ups. (Perfectly executed that is.)
59 sit-ups
2 mile run in 15:12 minutes
6 chin-ups
5 mile run in forty minutes.

Push-up/Sit-up/2 Mile Run is 70% in the male 17-21 age bracket on the standard army apft. You could be a 35 yo old male and still have to attain this. So, to keep this at the 70% in the 17-21 age bracket:

This applied to the female bracket on the 17-21 female apft would be:
49 push-ups is above a 100%.
59 sit-ups is 70% same as the males.
70% on the 17-21 female push-up bracket is 25 push-ups

The 2 mile run.
15:12 is 70% for the 17-21 male age bracket. That is again over 100% for the female bracket. 18:06 is the 70% for the female 17-21 age bracket.

Chin-ups min. of six perfectly executed. No apft standard for this. So, girls suck it up.

5 mile run in 40 min. No apft standard for this. Suck it up ladies.


So using the above a Female would have to do:
25 push-ups.
59 sit-ups
2 mile run in 18:06 minutes
6 chin-ups
5 mile run in forty minutes.

The bolded can be considered lowered standards.

[11B4V]

Almost forgot
16-mile Road March with 65lb pack in 5 hours 20 minutes. No APFT standard, so suck it up ladies.

[The Minsky Moment]

An American woman ran a 5K in under 15 minutes.  That is almost 3 miles.  So I don't think 2 miles in 15 minutes would be impossible to say the least.
The 8K record (almost 5 miles) is under 25 minutes so again the 40 should be achievable by a highly fit young woman.

[11B4V]

An American woman ran a 5K in under 15 minutes.  That is almost 3 miles.  So I don't think 2 miles in 15 minutes would be impossible to say the least.
The 8K record (almost 5 miles) is under 25 minutes so again the 40 should be achievable by a highly fit young woman.

Missed the point entirely MM.

[The Minsky Moment]

Missed the point entirely MM.

Ok.  What is the point?