Breaking news: Margaret Thatcher has died

[Sheilbh]

As for riots and mass disorder, they have a fairly long history in Britain as well. I believe Londoners - especially organized tradesmen - have been involved rather physically on a number of occasions.

... or did you mean something else when you speak of the Britain that used to exist?

Until the French took over the English were known as the unruly lot who killed a King. I think public disorder and xenophobia are the two features that lots of Medieval and Tudor Europeans write about after visiting England. It's that old theory that historically England's an unstable, often violent, raucous island that had a 100 year imperial period of politeness, morals and decorum.

Of course it's probably nonsense, but it's better than the worthy Victorian nonsense.

[garbon]

Having a party is acting like a hooligan?

When you have a party to celebrate the death of someone who wasn't even evil, yes.

[Valmy]

Until the French took over the English were known as the unruly lot who killed a King. I think public disorder and xenophobia are the two features that lots of Medieval and Tudor Europeans write about after visiting England. It's that old theory that historically England's an unstable, often violent, raucous island that had a 100 year imperial period of politeness, morals and decorum.

Of course it's probably nonsense, but it's better than the worthy Victorian nonsense.

Yeah I recall people complaining about the English in the Third Crusade always being drunk and unruly.  There were wild parties in the streets of London when an unpopular King died...in someways these crew is participating in an ancient tradition

[Jacob]

Jake: I started with 3rd wave & worked my way backwards.  But yeah, I listened to a lot of Specials and other great 2nd wave groups.  None of it, not even the political stuff, led me to expect crap like what we're seeing.

I guess you didn't consume a whole bunch of other 80s British produced media to put it in context, or hang out with very many working class Brits who lived through the era? Because to me, and it's not like I'm some sort of expert on the subject, it was nonetheless blindingly obvious that it was going to happen like this. Like... utterly unsurprising.

[Valmy]

Jake: I started with 3rd wave & worked my way backwards.  But yeah, I listened to a lot of Specials and other great 2nd wave groups.  None of it, not even the political stuff, led me to expect crap like what we're seeing.

I guess you didn't consume a whole bunch of other 80s British produced media to put it in context, or hang out with very many working class Brits who lived through the era? Because to me, and it's not like I'm some sort of expert on the subject, it was nonetheless blindingly obvious that it was going to happen like this. Like... utterly unsurprising.

Yeah I am not surprised at all.  They essentially blame her for the destruction of a way of life, which I find ridiculous.

I have to admit though...it was not like she did not glorify in said destruction regardless of how little she actually did to cause it IMO.

[garbon]

I guess you didn't consume a whole bunch of other 80s British produced media to put it in context, or hang out with very many working class Brits who lived through the era? Because to me, and it's not like I'm some sort of expert on the subject, it was nonetheless blindingly obvious that it was going to happen like this. Like... utterly unsurprising.

I don't know. I mean there is something to be said for the course of time. Didn't have to be the case that people my age would be crowing over the death of someone who held power whilst we were being born and toilet training. Certainly 80s music can't be said to predict that.

[derspiess]

I guess you didn't consume a whole bunch of other 80s British produced media to put it in context,

I did but I guess I didn't take it seriously enough. 

or hang out with very many working class Brits who lived through the era?

Well you got me there.  The only anti-Thatcher Brit I personally knew was a bit of a weird guy in other respects as well.

Because to me, and it's not like I'm some sort of expert on the subject, it was nonetheless blindingly obvious that it was going to happen like this. Like... utterly unsurprising.

Good for you.  I did hear a lot of anti-Thatcher vitriol on the internet, but I guess I just chalked it up to hyperbole and didn't think people would be classless enough to literally pop the champagne upon hearing of her death.

People here talked a lot of shit about Reagan, Clinton, Bush, and now Obama.  But with time a lot of that hatred faded (and will fade for Obama once he's out of office for a few years).  And I guess that gets to why I in all my naivite was surprised-- that people still carried that big of a grudge against Thatcher after all this time.

[Jacob]

I don't know. I mean there is something to be said for the course of time. Didn't have to be the case that people my age would be crowing over the death of someone who held power whilst we were being born and toilet training. Certainly 80s music can't be said to predict that.

Yet both Valmy and I claim it helps us do so. Perhaps we paid more attention to the UK than you did?

The 80s ska reference was directed specifically at DS because of his taste in music. As I said to CC about Billy Elliot, a large majority of the British working and creative classes absolutely loathe(d) Thatcher, something which is pretty damn obvious and has found continual and unrelenting expression since her years in power. If you missed that, you simply weren't paying attention. Not that you were obliged to, of course, if you didn't care about it. But it was ther to see for anyone who even remotely cared to look.

[garbon]

You're right in that I didn't/don't care very much. Still seems odd to me to look to the 80s to guage the feelings of kids not even born then.

[garbon]

By-the-by, while I think much of the American left loathed Bush 2, I don't think we'll have many night clubs having nights to celebrate his death. Maybe Americans are just more likely to move on.

[derspiess]

I'm a little puzzled as to why Jake is putting so much energy into this.

[Habbaku]

I'm a little puzzled as to why Jake is putting so much energy into this.

  Maybe he's just enjoying a topic.  When you question motives like this, you sound worse than Raz.

[Jacob]

Good for you.  I did hear a lot of anti-Thatcher vitriol on the internet, but I guess I just chalked it up to hyperbole and didn't think people would be classless enough to literally pop the champagne upon hearing of her death.

People here talked a lot of shit about Reagan, Clinton, Bush, and now Obama.  But with time a lot of that hatred faded (and will fade for Obama once he's out of office for a few years).  And I guess that gets to why I in all my naivite was surprised-- that people still carried that big of a grudge against Thatcher after all this time.

I think Thatcher's impact was orders of magnitude greater. I mean, you're pretty unfond of Obama; I expect that you know some people who are fairly vitriolic towards him. But really, all the rhetoric of the American political stage aside, how much has your way of life - or that of his major detractors you may know personally - changed due to his policies? Still, there's a fair bit of vitriol aimed at the man.

Now, if we imagine that Obama's policies put you and pretty much everyone you know out of work not just now but for the next five years or more, and rather than try to put together some sort of retraining package for hardworking Americans or whatever he openly scorned you and left you to rot; I imagine the dislike you have for him would be significantly stronger and longer lasting.

I mean sure you don't like Obama, but what has he really done to you? Thatcher completely and utterly won, and she was neither merciful nor conciliatory towards those she labelled he enemies. Can you really remain surprised that those she labelled thus - and as Valmy said, gloried in their destruction - rejoice at the only victory they ever scored - outliving her?

[CountDeMoney]

Yet both Valmy and I claim it helps us do so. Perhaps we paid more attention to the UK than you did?

The 80s ska reference was directed specifically at DS because of his taste in music. As I said to CC about Billy Elliot, a large majority of the British working and creative classes absolutely loathe(d) Thatcher, something which is pretty damn obvious and has found continual and unrelenting expression since her years in power. If you missed that, you simply weren't paying attention. Not that you were obliged to, of course, if you didn't care about it. But it was ther to see for anyone who even remotely cared to look.

I distinctly remember the protests, rallies and marches in the UK against Thatcher in the early 80s.  It was hard to miss over here if you were paying attention to 60 Minutes.

And I certainly remember how vehemently Thatcher's support for US Pershing and cruise missile deployment was protested, but I think that was the icing on the anti-Thatcher cake by the time all that rolled around.  And yeah, it made its way into popular culture.  But I wasn't listening to ska at the time;  it was all Hall and Oates, baby.

[Jacob]

I'm a little puzzled as to why Jake is putting so much energy into this.

I can stop if you like. Is it making you uncomfortable?