Breaking news: Margaret Thatcher has died

[Ed Anger]

The drones are revolting. Nerve Staple them.

[derspiess]

Not surprised as much as disappointed.  I knew she was a divisive politician, but I expect that sort of thing from hot-blooded, wildly gesturing Mediterranean continentals, not the polite and reserved English.  Especially when it was 30 years ago.

You'd think she played soccer or something with reactions like that.

I'm a little surprised.  These celebrations are seriously fucked up. 

The England I learned about growing up is dead.  Not that this was the first sign

[Josquius]

The difference is this, Thatcher's policies hurt a group of essentially adult babies. People whose lives simply were not sustainable and whom expected government to artificially keep the flowers blooming and the sun rising for them til the end of time. Their anger is childish and stupid.

Jimmy Carter took the greatest country on earth in terms of economic, political, and military might and made it dance to the tune of whatever shit hole country in the world felt like playing the pipes. He followed up his ignominious period as a failure of a President with a long career overseas fomenting anti-Americanism and support for Palestinian terrorists, Hugo Chavez etc. Carter is easily the worst President we've had since Tyler who actively joined the Confederacy or Pierce who secretly supported the traitors.

Yet somehow following the 2008- economic crisis Britain is entering a lost decade whilst Germany is doing wonderfully.

[CountDeMoney]

Not surprised as much as disappointed.  I knew she was a divisive politician, but I expect that sort of thing from hot-blooded, wildly gesturing Mediterranean continentals, not the polite and reserved English.  Especially when it was 30 years ago.

If the reaction to Princess Di's death didn't undermine our reputation for being polite and reserved, then nothing will.

That useless courtesan cooze wasn't fit to hold Maggie's handbag. 
Sorry, but rich people raised specifically to be married off to other rich people getting whacked is no big loss.

[MadImmortalMan]

I was just a kid when she was actually in power, that much is true, but I was born during her reign and all throughout my childhood I lived in the shadow of her destruction. Major didn't come in and then suddenly everything was better again, even Blair didn't undo too much of her mess. Its stupid to say that because we weren't around at the time we can't hate what she did. So much of what is wrong in this country today can be traced squarely back to her.

I think you guys give her too much credit for a lot of that. If Thatcher hadn't been Thatcher, somebody else would have been. She just happened to be the one at #10 at the time. It's like saying Reagan single-handedly took down the USSR.

[The Larch]

From the reactions on this thread it seems that plenty of yanks had an extremely rose tinted vision of the UK.

[CountDeMoney]

Jimmy Carter took the greatest country on earth in terms of economic, political, and military might and made it dance to the tune of whatever shit hole country in the world felt like playing the pipes. He followed up his ignominious period as a failure of a President with a long career overseas fomenting anti-Americanism and support for Palestinian terrorists, Hugo Chavez etc. Carter is easily the worst President we've had since Tyler who actively joined the Confederacy or Pierce who secretly supported the traitors.

Oh, Otto...dear, dear Otto.  You had been doing so well since discovering fatherhood.  Don't start sliding back now.

[Sheilbh]

I guess CC hasn't watched any Ken Loach movies, then.

God I love Ken Loach. He's just made a documentary on this sort of thing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c86Gwsb5LY

The England I grew up learning about is dead.  Not that this was the first sign

I doubt it ever existed.

[Jacob]

I'm a little surprised.  These celebrations are seriously fucked up. 

The England I grew up learning about is dead.  Not that this was the first sign

The England you grew up learning about probably never quite existed just like that. The working classes of England have long been known for their boisterous qualities.

I'm surprised your love of ska didn't make that clear to you, or were you never into second wave 80s 2-tone?

[OttoVonBismarck]

Yet somehow following the 2008- economic crisis Britain is entering a lost decade whilst Germany is doing wonderfully.

By and large because of a culture of quality management in Germany and a government that enforces corporate discipline but without artificially propping up any industries. Like Japan, Germany falls into the category of one of the former Axis powers immediately after WWII that had a massive manufacturing boom largely powered by huge subsidies from the government. That's necessary when rebuilding a country. That's not been the case in a really long time, Germany's modern day economic success is tied to similar measures as those in Canada--fiscal discipline, good businesses etc. Further Germany, divorced from the DM which for years subjected it to cyclical adjustments is now in the Euro where the shittiness of the rest of the Eurozone economy allows it to take advantage of a currency that isn't strong at all relative to the German economy. If Germany was still on the DM it'd be an extremely expensive currency and Germany's import dominance would be trimmed because of it.

Germany is not successful because it went down a path that was the yin to Thatcher's yang. They went down a different path but it's not one in which government keeps a lot of trade unions only interested in unrealistic economic policies running the heavy industrial sector. German unions are certainly an integral part of the economic system there but it's far more of a system geared towards workers and management working collaboratively toward ultimate ends that allow both sides to benefit. Far too much of the UK was run by government hands before Thatcher as well and it's only good that such things came to an end.

[The Larch]

I'm a little surprised.  These celebrations are seriously fucked up. 

The England I grew up learning about is dead.  Not that this was the first sign

The England you grew up learning about probably never quite existed just like that. The working classes of England have long been known for their boisterous qualities.

I'm surprised your love of ska didn't make that clear to you, or were you never into second wave 80s 2-tone?

Ghost Town from The Specials comes to mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WhhSBgd3KI

[Sheilbh]

I think you guys give her too much credit for a lot of that. If Thatcher hadn't been Thatcher, somebody else would have been. She just happened to be the one at #10 at the time. It's like saying Reagan single-handedly took down the USSR.

I just don't buy that, I mean this is like a liberal Marxist version of history. That we would naturally have developed into the economy we have because it was the work of scientific historical forces. It wasn't. Thatcher was a great man.

I think if you're a Thatcherite then chances are you'd say actually decline was another possibility. I've said before that I don't think any other PM would've gone to war over the Falklands. Britain's sort-of retreat from the world could have continued. We could have carried on with the same sort of stop-start reforms that characterised the late 60s and the 70s.

From a critical perspective you can also say there was nothing inevitable in Britain choosing to have an economy that was so based in London and on finance. There was no need to abandon vast swathes of this country to the welfare rolls, paid for by our gas windfall (and what a waste of money that was). A successful centre left reformer, with an up to date 'in place of strife' plan could have made Britain less centralised politically and economically and less dependant on financial magic tricks.

There were choices for Britain and Thatcher made hers and she prevailed. As I say I don't think she'd be hated if she wasn't a big figure.

Though it can be overstated. She viewed it all as a kind of rebuilding of Britain - 'economics is the method, the goal is moral' - and in the areas that she took an interest in she had considerable success. But there were areas of policy that she, frankly, wasn't interested in and public sector reform was one of them where she doesn't have a significant record. We had as big a welfare state after Thatcher as we did in the 60s and early 70s (as a percent of GDP); the welfare state wasn't really reformed either so there was no workfare or anything like that.

[DGuller]

This picture always amused me, in how it subtly told a story that was likely true:

[garbon]

From the reactions on this thread it seems that plenty of yanks had an extremely rose tinted vision of the UK.

I don't think so. I think it is more like what Seed's said not surprised, just disappointed. After all, we all know about London's ridiculous riots in 2011 - and about hooliganism for soccer matches.

[mongers]

From the reactions on this thread it seems that plenty of yanks had an extremely rose tinted vision of the UK.

Yeah it's somewhat bizarre, younger Yanks tell us who actually lived through those times what it was like.   

Incidentally my year left school exactly 12 months after she was elected, and joined the workforce right into the teeth of the first Thatcher recession. 

You know the one which was going to bring her government electoral defeat, if the Falkland victory hadn't have happened.