25 years old and deep in debt

[merithyn]

He did one better. He told everyone that I'd begged him for it, gave it up in glee, and asked if he would call me again. How could I then come out and say, "Actually, this is what happened."? Who would have believed me? People would have just assumed that I was claiming rape because he never called me again.

Wow...it is like you were dating Caligula or something.

I wasn't dating him. He and I were at a party at his cousin's house. He took me to his cousin's room when I asked where the bathroom was.

[Jacob]

You know, shit like this pisses me off.

No, not every man is a potential rapist.

I'm all for better education about what consent actually means, and about teaching boundaries.  But if you take the attitude that every man is a potential rapist you're just going to tune out the messenger.

I think you're taking this the wrong way. This list doesn't imply that every man is a rapist. It's simply an inversion of the usual "how to avoid being raped" lists given out to young women, placing the responsibility where it belongs: on the rapist, not the victim.

I mean... I guess that it does imply it a little bit, but that's only because the lists this one is a response to does encourage women to think of all men as potential rapists; but I'd say this list has less of that implication.

But if we're talking about risk management to help people avoid being in an unfortunate situation involving rape, I'd think that telling people who may rape someone what constitutes rape (i.e. if they're sleeping, don't do it) is as valid as telling potential victims what situations to avoid.

[garbon]

It was traumatic because of how it happened, and the fall-out from it. (Luckily, I was self-possessed enough to get through the school gossip fairly intact.) The situation that Berkut outlined was different, but if she's said no and she knew she wasn't ready and HE knew she wasn't ready, then going forward with it is going to end up pretty awful for her. Not only that, but I can't imagine the relationship being very successful after that, either.

Is it the readiness part that makes it rape/sexual assualt? As in - if she'd already had intercourse before with him then it wouldn't be rape?

I'm thinking you'll say no but then I'm not sure how you balance the fact that she eventually let it happen - with really no show of force on his part.

I'll spin out two personal examples (one of which I've shared in the past).

1) There was a fellow student (upperclassman) who I once slept with and then later went to visit in city. By the time we got into his bed - it was like 3 am and I was drunk and just ready for sleep.  Of course as he had me in his bed he was ready to go. I slapped his hand away several times and told him I wasn't up for it. He kept insisting and though I'd said no several times - essentially used me as a masturbatory toy before nodding off.  Was I sexually assaulted? His penis was on me when I didn't want it.

2) I met a guy while drunk at a bar and agreed to go to his place. We were messing around when he stated that he wanted me to fuck him. I said no as I was drunk and didn't think I was capable of making good decisions. All of that said out loud. Little bits of time would past and he'd suggest again to which I said no. At one point he tried to sneak a condom onto me.  I should have left but I was so tired that we both agreed to just go to sleep.  Next morning I woke up with a condom on and he was fucking himself on me. I quickly threw him off and was like I was pretty clear on that last night.  Was sexually assaulted/raped?

[Valmy]

But if we're talking about risk management to help people avoid being in an unfortunate situation involving rape, I'd think that telling people who may rape someone what constitutes rape (i.e. if they're sleeping, don't do it) is as valid as telling potential victims what situations to avoid.

I think this is true.  But the tone of the list was making a joke of the whole thing.  Now nothing unusual about rape jokes on this site granted.

[Jacob]

It may have also been a joke about how sometimes people spin it as the rapist is the victim of the accusation.

I'm actually surprised at the reaction... yes, it's a joke, inverting the typical "young ladies, this is what you have to do to avoid being raped" list that have been around for a while.

It's obviously absurd. I mean, "carry a whistle and if you're about to rape someone, whistle until someone arrives and stops you"? How can that be anything other than a joke?

[MadImmortalMan]

He did one better. He told everyone that I'd begged him for it, gave it up in glee, and asked if he would call me again. How could I then come out and say, "Actually, this is what happened."? Who would have believed me? People would have just assumed that I was claiming rape because he never called me again.

Wow...it is like you were dating Caligula or something.

But Meri--did you fight? I assume from your story that you didn't do anything about it. Did you think nobody would help you or take you seriously? I mean, people throw the R word around like it's jellybeans on Halloween, but you can still get major help if you come forward. I guarantee not everyone would buy the story the guy was throwing around.

Maybe I'm being naive again.

[Valmy]

I wasn't dating him. He and I were at a party at his cousin's house. He took me to his cousin's room when I asked where the bathroom was.

Ah so date-rape is any rape that takes place in a social setting?

[Valmy]

I'm actually surprised at the reaction... yes, it's a joke, inverting the typical "young ladies, this is what you have to do to avoid being raped" list that have been around for a while.

It's obviously absurd. I mean, "carry a whistle and if you're about to rape someone, whistle until someone arrives and stops you"? How can that be anything other than a joke?

I think we all knew it was a joke Jacob

Well ok maybe not BB.

[Jacob]

Well sometimes she will come up and start kissing on me but I am not in the mood.  I guess unwanted sexual touching just occured.  They at least have to mention that you told them to stop and they did not stop or something.  Otherwise that definition is just ridiculous.

It's almost as if context makes a difference.

Like... if you're in a long term sexual relationship with someone, know each other well including non-verbal cues, it's a different than if you do it to someone you've just met and who's almost passed out.

[MadImmortalMan]

Nothing hotter than a woman who has to pee. 



What a douche.

[Valmy]

It's almost as if context makes a difference.

Indeed.  But even when you are dating and have just met somebody somebody might slip up and go too far.  The other person says 'um...so ma'am/sir' and that person stops.  I don't think that qualifies to me.

But this definition makes no requirement for context.

[garbon]

I wasn't dating him. He and I were at a party at his cousin's house. He took me to his cousin's room when I asked where the bathroom was.

Ah so date-rape is any rape that takes place in a social setting?

Well it is also called acquaintance rape in some places.

[Jacob]

I think this is true.  But the tone of the list was making a joke of the whole thing.  Now nothing unusual about rape jokes on this site granted.

You're right, it was a joke. However, I thought it had some merit in that it reversed the usual subject and tone of the joke. Most rape jokes treat the act of rape and/or the rape victim as the punchline. This joke relied on absurdity; it's very different, IMO.

[Valmy]

Nothing hotter than a woman who has to pee. 



What a douche.

Seriously the guy sounds like a sociopath.

[Malthus]

You are not I think getting my point. I'm arguing why actual, unbiased statistics are important for framing public policy ... and why advocates quite naturally tend to inflate them.

Say we have public policy issues A, B and C. If you advocate for issue A, you would quite naturally want the public to believe that issue A is a more serious problem than B or C, so as to get what you consider the necessary level of public support behind the effort to eradicate problem A.

Thing is, those advocating for issues B and C are doing the same ...

That's great. You're not getting my point.

But yeah, I agree that unbiased statistics are important for framing public policy

In some cases, credible and useful statistics are harder to come by - i.e. do we base public policy on rape and sexual behaviour on convicted sex offences? On cases reported to law enforcement?

However, I wasn't talking about public policy, I was talking about individual attitudes, experiences, and behaviour.

No, there are good reasons for not basing it on police data - that police data significantly under-reports incidents, as everyone knows.

That doesn't mean simply throwing our hands in the air and making stuff up that sounds about right based on anecdotal impressions. Rather, we should base it on what more or less sound statistical data is available. I linked to some.