25 years old and deep in debt

[merithyn]

I suppose I can see that, however I'm still leery given that I wouldn't have wanted him charged with a crime, he didn't endanger my sexual health and it wasn't a traumatizing act. I guess points 1 and 3 could be different for different people but then I think that would have to play into whether it was rape as what happened to me still seems far away from even just your scenario.

Well, if he were penetrating you instead of the other way around, I think your situation would have played out very differently. I don't say that to demean those who feel raped when used in that way, but because the traumatizing affect of entry is not something easily dismissed.

[Ed Anger]

This thread veered into rape?

Thank Philip V

Pat is probably lurking right now, and rubbing himself off while reading this.

I forgot about the Swedish Chef of POW abuse.

[garbon]

I suppose I can see that, however I'm still leery given that I wouldn't have wanted him charged with a crime, he didn't endanger my sexual health and it wasn't a traumatizing act. I guess points 1 and 3 could be different for different people but then I think that would have to play into whether it was rape as what happened to me still seems far away from even just your scenario.

Well, if he were penetrating you instead of the other way around, I think your situation would have played out very differently. I don't say that to demean those who feel raped when used in that way, but because the traumatizing affect of entry is not something easily dismissed.

Again I agree but then I wonder if that's something that has to be considered to when putting the label about.

Mind you, I'm fairly certain that if someone (or in this case he) had been trying to fuck me and kept trying when I said no - I'd be out the door!

[garbon]

Also I have to apologize as BB did say it was rape the last time that I brought up scenario 2. Seedy and Brain were flippant.

[Eddie Teach]

I think that 25% of women have been sexually assaulted and/or raped. Do I believe that that number is accurate on a yearly basis? No. Do I believe that number overall? Yes, at least. Annecdotally, I'd guess it to be more like 33% of women in the US have been sexually assaulted and/or raped.

Yeah this I can buy.  And from the few women close enough to me this discussion has been had it is exactly 33%.  Neither my wife or sister were raped but my wife was.

Mormon?

[Barrister]

Also I have to apologize as BB did say it was rape the last time that I brought up scenario 2. Seedy and Brain were flippant.

I'm curious.  Have a link?

[garbon]

Also I have to apologize as BB did say it was rape the last time that I brought up scenario 2. Seedy and Brain were flippant.

I'm curious.  Have a link?

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,3935.msg200743.html#msg200743

[Scipio]

I think it is useful to think of police reported cases as a floor; obviously, there are no fewer cases than get reported to the police, based upon highly reliable studies on under-reporting.  Which is not to say that all cases that are reported are legitimate; I've seen a number of cases that we dismissed following thorough investigation, polygraph of the alleged attacker, and usually recanting by the victim, victim's parent, or serious indicia of unreliability.  That only occurs in cases with no physical evidence of sexual contact, though.

Of women in my family, I know of none that have been raped.  I do know a number that have been sexually inconvenienced, and of one that was sexually assaulted.  Anecdotally, among ethnically insular first-generation Americans that are Orthodox Christians and comfortably middle class, the rate of women being sexually assaulted is less than 5%.  I see no reason to doubt that, like most crimes, the poorer you are, the more likely you are to be a victim.  Additionally, rape is, like burglary, armed robbery, and murder, a crime primarily of opportunity.  Considering that slightly more than the bare majority of persons convicted of rape are convicted of more than one, although it is likely that up to 25% of women have been sexually assaulted in their history, there are women who are likely victims of multiple sexual assaults and rapes.

These statistics are essentially meaningless, in that there is no minimally acceptable level of rapes or sexual assaults, much like there is no minimally acceptable level of murders, kidnappings, etc.  A decrease in the rape rate is generally accounted to be a net positive, unlike a decrease in the DUI rate, which is directly related to the local law enforcement agency's money supply.

[Berkut]

Yes.  Without any doubt.  Sexual assault is a sex act without consent.  Sarah did not consent.

Do you have to get a verbal "yes" before you proceed? 

If you've gotten a verbal "no", then absolutely you'd better get a verbal "yes" before proceeding.

Look - there are some grey areas here.  If you're told "well I have a headache", or "I'm feeling tired", then while it would still be without consent, you may have an 'honest but mistaken belief in consent'.

But as they say, "no means no".

Forever and ever?

[Berkut]

Well I do not see how that is possible.  What might be too far for one person might not be for another.  Which is why I think it is perfectly fine so long as somebody stops what they are doing when the other person says something. 

I guess the alternative is we have very strict codes of etiquette where everything is very strictly controlled via social convention.  But we already did that and we rebelled remember?  Besides I don't know if that actually reduces rape.  But it probably reduces somebody getting a bit too frisky on a date.

This why education of both boys and girls is essential. Girls need to learn that "no" is a safeword, not a ploy to appear coy. And boys need to learn that when they hear that, they need to back off and figure out what's really going on. Even if she still pushes forward, the smart boy stops the whole thing and walks away to have a rational, clear conversation before continuing anything. The smart girl doesn't play around when she uses the word "no". She says it loudly, clearly, and definitively. No equivocation.

It all comes down to clear, concise communication on both sides. We need to teach kids this in Sex Ed starting in 6th grade and reiterate it all the way through school.

That is all great and desireable, but I cannot accept that the definition or "rape" is essentially "sex where ideally clear and concise communication has not occurred".

[crazy canuck]

That is all great and desireable, but I cannot accept that the definition or "rape" is essentially "sex where ideally clear and concise communication has not occurred".

Welcome to our brave new world.

The advice to my boys will be get the consent in writing, notorized and keep the reciept for the box of condoms she bought for you.

[Darth Wagtaros]

That is all great and desireable, but I cannot accept that the definition or "rape" is essentially "sex where ideally clear and concise communication has not occurred".

Welcome to our brave new world.

The advice to my boys will be get the consent in writing, notorized and keep the reciept for the box of condoms she bought for you.

She could still claim to have changed her mind at the last minute.  Best video it with her saying "I consent" at key moments.

[derspiess]

That is all great and desireable, but I cannot accept that the definition or "rape" is essentially "sex where ideally clear and concise communication has not occurred".

Welcome to our brave new world.

The advice to my boys will be get the consent in writing, notorized and keep the reciept for the box of condoms she bought for you.

Lawyers

[Jacob]

Welcome to our brave new world.

The advice to my boys will be get the consent in writing, notorized and keep the reciept for the box of condoms she bought for you.

I wonder if your advice would be any different if you had daughters as well as sons...

I mean, yeah, the consequences of being falsely accused of rape/ sexual assault are not pleasant to contemplate either. Do we have any idea - anecdotes or data - of the frequency that people are falsely accused of rape and/or sexual assault?

Personally, I don't know of anyone to whom that has happened - but then again, I don't think it's the kind of thing that people would tell everyone either.

EDIT: that said, if your advice boils down to "make sure that she's definitely willing rather than just assume that she is" then I think that's actually good advice, especially for young people who are just learning the ropes, so to speak. Being attentive to your partner's desires is a good thing when it comes to sex, and making sure that everything is a go is a good foundation for that, even if it's awkward when you're just getting your feet (or whatever) wet.

[merithyn]

That is all great and desireable, but I cannot accept that the definition or "rape" is essentially "sex where ideally clear and concise communication has not occurred".

No one said that it would be defined that way. I only suggested that if there is any question - as in if at any point during the episode she said "no" - that rather than pushing forward, they both take a break and figure out where the line is.

Interestingly, when I brought your story up with my 18-year-old son, he said that the first time she said no, he'd back off. I asked what that meant, and he said that if she said no, he'd take it back to just making out. End of story. He wouldn't ever want to put a girl into the position of feeling like he pressured her into anything.

So, it's not really so awkward or awful as you're making it sound. It can be done with very little fuss, and even less drama.