The Future of the Catholic Church

[viper37]

My response:  I believe that the secret to a good pot of coffee is in getting the right proportions of water and ground coffee; one rounded tablespoon of ground coffee per 6 ounces of water.

I don't speak Imperial, only Metric

[grumbler]

Thirdly I don't think the Church necessarily sees its future as being 'part' of modern society.  I think the conservative wing is becoming more popular precisely because it stands against things like gay marriage and abortion.  I don't think the Church sees its future as joining in with the changes in European or American mores as much as it sees itself increasingly as quite separate and detached.  Very much a City of God.

I think you may well be right.  I hadn't seen developments in exactly these terms, but your description and prescription fit what I am seeing and hearing quite closely.  The Catholic Church as a refuge from runaway modernity would, indeed, have a place and a certain degree of stable popularity.

[grumbler]

I don't speak Imperial, only Metric

And that's why you can't get good coffee in Canada (though great espresso).

[Razgovory]

I thought you were a Nationalist.

how is that inconsistant?

A nation is an imaginary greater power.  Nations exist entirely in the human mind.

[Sheilbh]

A nation is an imaginary greater power.  Nations exist entirely in the human mind.

I think you can say nations are human constructs but they don't exist entirely in the mind.  Languages, history, culture and all the other things that create a nation are real external things.  Far more so than, say, liberty or fraternity which are much-disputed human concepts.

[Razgovory]

A nation is an imaginary greater power.  Nations exist entirely in the human mind.

I think you can say nations are human constructs but they don't exist entirely in the mind.  Languages, history, culture and all the other things that create a nation are real external things.  Far more so than, say, liberty or fraternity which are much-disputed human concepts.

Something can exist only in the human mind but still be real.  I'd say language, history and culture exist entirely in the human mind.  They may leave artifacts in the observable world, but with out a human mind they aren't a language or a history or a culture.  A book becomes nothing more then paper and ink.  A historical battlefield is but a field with shards of metal and corpses.  A Christmas tree is nothing but a dead tree with glass and plastic strung on it.  Somethings do exist in the external world, for instance math.  Two Hydrogen atoms combine with one oxygen whether a human being is there to interpret it or not.

[Solmyr]

There's always the Prophecy of the Popes. So if the next one is named Peter, we'll know it'll end badly.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Thirdly I don't think the Church necessarily sees its future as being 'part' of modern society.  I think the conservative wing is becoming more popular precisely because it stands against things like gay marriage and abortion.  I don't think the Church sees its future as joining in with the changes in European or American mores as much as it sees itself increasingly as quite separate and detached.  Very much a City of God.

I think you may well be right.  I hadn't seen developments in exactly these terms, but your description and prescription fit what I am seeing and hearing quite closely.  The Catholic Church as a refuge from runaway modernity would, indeed, have a place and a certain degree of stable popularity.

seems there's the danger that instead of a refuge of runaway modernity it becomes a group of "refugees" running away from modernity. And we don't need more Amish-type groups. But we're not there yet, might never even get there.

[dps]

Thirdly I don't think the Church necessarily sees its future as being 'part' of modern society.  I think the conservative wing is becoming more popular precisely because it stands against things like gay marriage and abortion.  I don't think the Church sees its future as joining in with the changes in European or American mores as much as it sees itself increasingly as quite separate and detached.  Very much a City of God.

I think you may well be right.  I hadn't seen developments in exactly these terms, but your description and prescription fit what I am seeing and hearing quite closely.  The Catholic Church as a refuge from runaway modernity would, indeed, have a place and a certain degree of stable popularity.

seems there's the danger that instead of a refuge of runaway modernity it becomes a group of "refugees" running away from modernity. And we don't need more Amish-type groups. But we're not there yet, might never even get there.

Do you think that the existance of the Amish and similar groups is harmful to society as a whole.  I mean, on a certain level society doesn't "need" any such groups, but then socieity doesn't "need" online forums similar to Languish, either, but I don't think we're harming society just by posting here.

[Martinus]

As a comment to a lot of the previous posts, especially by Sheilbh and BB, I think you guys are forgetting the fact that the catholic church has its own mini-state in the middle of Europe, and also has a lot of temporal influence in catholic countries. I don't think the withdrawal from the society that you describe will allow them to keep these holdings - in terms of manpower, finances and politics, the liberalizing EU countries will simply not tolerate its continued existence, if it grows more and more conservative and out of touch with the rest of Europe.

[Martinus]

For example I can see catholic countries nationalizing historical monuments that are now in the hands of the catholic church, if for example the catholic church grows more conservative and restricts access for the general public to such places.

[Martinus]

Do you think that the existance of the Amish and similar groups is harmful to society as a whole.  I mean, on a certain level society doesn't "need" any such groups, but then socieity doesn't "need" online forums similar to Languish, either, but I don't think we're harming society just by posting here.

Crazy Ivan is a Belgian. Their king is catholic, catholic church plays a huge role in public life (even if it is more ceremonious now). Again, people from non-catholic countries should take extra care because you are simply not getting it if you think an ultra-conservative catholic church in, say, Belgium, is comparable to amish communities.

[Iormlund]

To illustrate what Martinus is saying, the government pays here for Catholic religious education in public schools.

[dps]

Do you think that the existance of the Amish and similar groups is harmful to society as a whole.  I mean, on a certain level society doesn't "need" any such groups, but then socieity doesn't "need" online forums similar to Languish, either, but I don't think we're harming society just by posting here.

Crazy Ivan is a Belgian. Their king is catholic, catholic church plays a huge role in public life (even if it is more ceremonious now). Again, people from non-catholic countries should take extra care because you are simply not getting it if you think an ultra-conservative catholic church in, say, Belgium, is comparable to amish communities.

I'm not comparing Catholics, conservative or otherwise, to the Amish.  He specifically mentioned that "we don't need more Amish-type groups" and I was trying to find what problem he has with the Amish (or similar groups).

[Razgovory]

I wouldn't take Marty's word on this, or anything.