Unions: good for workers or bad for business?

[Savonarola]

Beaten by Garbon.  I'll now proudly accept my certificate of redundancy certificate.

[C.C.R.]

Considering that in the US there are states with the barbaric concept of "at will employment", I would say that trade unions are still very much necessary.

Completely anecdotal here (and I know that the "at will employment" concept is just a button that Marty likes to push to stir the pot, but anyways), but with all of the layoffs that I have been seeing going on all around me here lately one of the down sides that I have been seeing for union workers is that their employers are pretty much hemmed into letting them go completely based on seniority & without any kind of consideration for merit & productiveness -- guys that have been kicking ass & taking names for seven or eight years are sitting home watching "The View" (shudder) while fucktards that have done nothing for twenty years but show up on time & do the bare minimum still get paid to bitch about how something isn't their job, which in turn seems to lead to even more layoffs.

Or something.  In the end I'll have to echo the thoughts already expressed here by a few others -- the few unions here in the US that really care about their members & sincerely work to improve their lot by working with Management(TM) to promote further education & training opportunities are great, but your stereotypical "fuck you, pay me!" unions can blow me.  IMHO their inflexibility is just contributing even more to the economy's downward spiral...

[CountDeMoney]

Unions are not only good for workers and good for business, they're good for America.

[Sheilbh]

Seniority is one of those things that I saw in the US (again, in The Wire) that I'm not sure if our unions have.  Does anyone know?

[dps]

It depends on your state.  Any so-called "right to work" state bans the closed shop.  At that point, a union is substantially crippled.

Raz is right; closed shops have been illegal in the US since the Truman administration. 

There's usually confusion about the difference between a closed shop and a union shop.  A closed shop is one where membership in a union is a pre-condition to employment.  Union shops, where one must join the union before a set period of time after gaining employment or be fired, are still permitted except in states with right to work laws.

Yes, and what right-to-work laws do is ban union shops in the states that have them.

Part of the confusion over the terms "closed shop" and "union shop" is due to the fact that the closed shop has been against the law for so long that the term "closed shop" has become to be used to refer to what are actually union shops.

[CountDeMoney]

Union shops, where one must join the union before a set period of time after gaining employment or be fired,

Like the Baltimore PD.

[HVC]

It depends on your state.  Any so-called "right to work" state bans the closed shop.  At that point, a union is substantially crippled.

Raz is right; closed shops have been illegal in the US since the Truman administration. 

There's usually confusion about the difference between a closed shop and a union shop.  A closed shop is one where membership in a union is a pre-condition to employment.  Union shops, where one must join the union before a set period of time after gaining employment or be fired, are still permitted except in states with right to work laws.

Seems like a semantic difference.

[Savonarola]

Seems like a semantic difference.

And that's what Languish is all about.

I think the idea of outlawing closed shops was to prevent Unions from blackballing people and therefore preventing them from working. 

[Razgovory]

Seems like a semantic difference.

And that's what Languish is all about.

I think the idea of outlawing closed shops was to prevent Unions from blackballing people and therefore preventing them from working.

I think the idea was to weaken the power of Unions.

[MadImmortalMan]

Seems like a semantic difference.

Yep. We still effectively have closed shops.

[citizen k]

Seems like a semantic difference.

And that's what Languish is all about.

I think the idea of outlawing closed shops was to prevent Unions from blackballing people and therefore preventing them from working.

I think the idea was to weaken the power of Unions.

[dps]

It depends on your state.  Any so-called "right to work" state bans the closed shop.  At that point, a union is substantially crippled.

Raz is right; closed shops have been illegal in the US since the Truman administration. 

There's usually confusion about the difference between a closed shop and a union shop.  A closed shop is one where membership in a union is a pre-condition to employment.  Union shops, where one must join the union before a set period of time after gaining employment or be fired, are still permitted except in states with right to work laws.

Seems like a semantic difference.

No, because in a union shop situation, the union contractually has to accept as a member anyone who the employer hires, but under a closed shop, the employer could only hire the people that the union allowed to join--effectively letting the union blackball prospective employees.  In particular, many unions didn't allow minorities, particularly blacks, to join, so the closed shop was often used for racial discrimination, and banning it was a step toward integration--remember that Taft-Hartley came well before the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

[grumbler]

No, because in a union shop situation, the union contractually has to accept as a member anyone who the employer hires, but under a closed shop, the employer could only hire the people that the union allowed to join--effectively letting the union blackball prospective employees.  In particular, many unions didn't allow minorities, particularly blacks, to join, so the closed shop was often used for racial discrimination, and banning it was a step toward integration--remember that Taft-Hartley came well before the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

I'll buy that. 

[Grallon]

On principle a union of the workforce is to be desired.  Unfortunately Unions tend to copy the existing corporate model - therefore duplicating all the flaws of said model.

Keep corporations small and unions small.



G.

[MadImmortalMan]

On principle a union of the workforce is to be desired.  Unfortunately Unions tend to copy the existing corporate model - therefore duplicating all the flaws of said model.

Keep corporations small and unions small.



G.

Actually, I totally agree with this. When they get too big, it turns into collusion--just like any business sector dominated by one or two players does.